WSU vs. Gonzaga: A way-too-early comparison

by Grady. on Nov 15, 2009 3:33 PM PST in Cougar Basketball Comment 31 comments

Dean Hare - AP

"I drive a Dodge Stratus!"

If you're looking forward to the showdown later this fall in the Kennel (and really who isn't?), we now have a reasonably worthwhile means to compare ourselves to the rival Zags. Granted, this doesn't tell us much about where the Cougs lie as a team, because the Zags are also young, unpredictable, unranked and untested.

We played MVSU in Pullman Friday. Gonzaga played MVSU in Spokane yesterday.

We won 94-66. The Zags won 92-74.

The Cougs had statistically ended the game with 7:23 to play. Gonzaga: 4:56.

Four factors?

NCAA Basketball Stats

I can't tell you how encouraging it is to see us completely blow out the Zags in offensive rebounding against the same opponent. GU shot a little better, protected the ball a little better, and got to the free throw line at a pretty astonishing rate. Our defense coerced the Delta Devils into more turnovers, however.

Now, the average fan would look at the game score and say: "OMGZ!! Teh Cougars are just as good as Gonzaga offensively and play just as fast!!!1!!1"

Of course, you, the intelligent readers of CougCenter, know better.

The Zags played their game a little bit faster, with 77 total possessions compared to WSU-MVSU's 74.

Against this particular opponent, however, the Cougs were superior offensively. WSU, even on a rough shooting night, had an efficiency rating of 127. The Zags: 119.5. The Cougs were also superior defensively, holding MVSU to an efficiency of 89.2. Gonzaga: 96.1. WSU rebounded better too: grabbing 67.1% to the Zags' 57.8%.

Remember, though, that this is just one game, and the stats are still close enough to where you'd be crazy to draw any definitive conclusions.

Still, two things stand out: one, that the Delta Devils were playing their second game in two days. Gonzaga was playing their first of the season. It seems to me that if the teams were dead equal Gonzaga should still have had the better performance based on the fact they were playing a tired opponent. Of course, getting those first game jitters out of the way may have helped MVSU keep the Gonzaga game closer than it should have been.

Second, my number one concern for this season is our rebounding ability without Aron Baynes in the picture. Our performance on the glass against MVSU is extremely encouraging. Especially when you consider that Gonzaga plays Rob Sacre (7'0", 247) and occasionally runs out Will Foster (7'5", 273!) and Andy Poling (6'11", 232). However, GU is a lot like us: Sacre is their Casto, Foster is their Bjornstad, and their other big men are on the slim side, minus Poling. Nevertheless, we outrebounded a program that is supposed to have superior size and talent. Not bad.

I officially concede to Craig. We do have a chance against Gonzaga this year. Few win in K2, but we have serious links to two of the teams that have: we won there in 2007, and have the coach that won there in 2008 (Ken Bone).

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Of course you put this post up

And of course we can compete with Gonzaga this year. We will know a lot more on after Tuesday night once we both get another game under are belts…can we blow out Eastern…can they keep it close vs. Mich Sate? Bt until shown otherwise I still like this team to be able to compete with everyone on the schedule.

by donkeyjon12 on Nov 15, 2009 4:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Be afraid

be very, very afraid.

Not really. Pretty lame effort last night. Especially by our veterans. Too many turnovers, not great offensive sets, and just a lot of inexperience. I’d imagine you’ll see a completely different team when we match up with you guys. At least that is my hope. We’ll learn alot more on Tuesday.

The Slipper Still Fits - SB Nation's home for the Gonzaga Bulldogs!

by Zach Bell on Nov 15, 2009 4:32 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

And don't get me wrong

I’m still intimidated by the GU veterans, especially Bouldin (I really hope we throw Capers on him the majority of the game) and Steven Gray.

However, look at both rosters, and you’ll see a ton of freshmen and sophomores. Both teams are ridiculously young and talented… should be a fun game.

by Grady. on Nov 15, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's a good bet that both teams will be different by December

CougCenter

by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hence "way-too-early" comparison

I thought while typing it that it may have been a total waste of time. But it’s fun to see where we’re at, even though it is a small sample size.

And this is the worst Gonzaga is going to be for a long, long time. That roster is stacked.

by Grady. on Nov 15, 2009 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting to look at though

Yes it is too early but I took a look at the GU/MVSU game last night wondering how they would do compared to WSU. I didn’t watch a lot but I did find it interesting that the games seemed somewhat similar. What does it mean? Who knows at this point.

by BornCoug on Nov 15, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Anything that isn't about football is fun

I can see the temptation!

by johnnycougar on Nov 15, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Both teams have work to do

Bone is trying to piece things together even in the backcourt. Who is going to play alongside Reggie Moore? Probably Thames or Capers at this point although that could change if Harthun starts to break through. Who is going to play alongside Casto? Lodwick is still missing shots, Motum isn’t ready, and Watson isn’t even playing.

A lot to work out here. I’m looking forward to seeing where we are at against EWU.

by BornCoug on Nov 15, 2009 4:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

If it were me...

I’d keep the same starting lineup: Moore, Capers, Klay, Abe and Casto. Abe is a surprisingly good rebounder, and shoots better than you might think inside the arc. If he can start hitting threes, then even better.

But I would be playing Motum a lot more than we have, and when Watson is healthy and ready he should not be sitting.

by Grady. on Nov 15, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hard for me to say

I haven’t seen them play yet. Coming in I had Moore, Thames, Klay, Motum, Casto. Motum obviously is still getting his feet wet so Lodwick is all we really have next to Casto. The reason I see Thames and not Capers or Harthun is because Thames seems more complete. He’s younger but has more offense than Capers and more defense than Harthun.

Still, it will be good to see them play. Maybe my perception of things will change. I hope to see a lot of Thame, Harthun, and Motum.

by BornCoug on Nov 15, 2009 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm concerned about how we match up w/Sacre.

Of course, DeAngelo is a beast, but there’s no denying that Sacre is 7’ tall and, unlike a lot of 7’ ers, strong and athletic. I’d also be curious to see how Abe would match up against their PF, Elias Harris. Suppossedly he’s the real deal, but he’s not extremely big and he is just a freshman.

I also think that our success or failure could hinge on our ability to contain the penetration of Demetri Goodson (sp?). If he’s driving and dishing, we’re in trouble. Turn him into a jump shooter and we’ll stand to have a lot greater chance of winning. In regards to whom we should sic Capers on, my choice would be him. I think Capers matched up on Goodson would be similar to how Capers was able to neutralize Nic Wise last season, as both are similar players. (fast, undersized, although Wise is a better shooter)

by jj_fekl on Nov 15, 2009 5:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

My matchups

Casto gets Sacre and I don’t really see that a difficult matchup for him. He gives up height but Casto is quicker. Good matchup.

Lodwick gets Harris – I don’t know much about either. I saw a bit of Harris last night and he is a nice player. A good matchup to see if Lodwick can defend in the past. MVSU didn’t give us much to go on.

Thompson get Gray – Thompson gets Gray.

Moore gets Goodson – We finally have a guard that can keep up with the speed and quickness most of the better programs have especially in the Pac 10. Moore needs to get used to picking up these kind of players in college. He obviously saw guys like Siva in high school and I’m sure good talent last year. Lets see what he can do. It will only help down the line

Capers would get Bouldin if he starts. Bouldin is still the key for GU in my book and Capers is our best defensive guard.

Thames would get Gray if he starts since Gray doesn’t post up as much as Bouldin. Thompson would then pick up Bouldin in this lineup.

Who would Harthun pick up? I guess Gray but if Harthun hasn’t become quicker I probably would go to a zone.

Capers gets Bouldin – If Capers starts or when he is in I would throw him on Bouldin. He’s still their key in my book.

by BornCoug on Nov 15, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a little concerned about Sacre

He has been underwhelming (and injured) most of his time so far at Gonzaga, but I understand he’s healthy and put up 27 points in a scrimmage versus Texas. If he gets Casto in foul trouble it could be a long night.

by mmevans15 on Nov 15, 2009 6:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone made the Sacre Bleu joke yet?

by johnnycougar on Nov 15, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nope, you're the first!

CougCenter

by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2009 8:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

How much better is MVSU than last year and the year before?

Last year MVSU scored 25 points against us and 26 the year before… How much is that because they are better and how much is it because of the flow of the game, and how much is that because we are worse than last year?

by Roy Weaver Stuckey on Nov 15, 2009 7:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Nik said this is the best team of the three

You can factor in the higher score to all three factors. The defensive efforts the last two years against those guys was ridiculous, and will never be duplicated under Bone.

CougCenter

by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2009 7:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget about pace.

Mr. Pace.

by jj_fekl on Nov 15, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm guessing that's what he meant by "flow of the game"

CougCenter

by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2009 8:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Gonzaga is still better

Let’s also point out that Gonzaga has to play Michigan Sate on Tuesday and probably didn’t want to give Izzo too much to work off of. While’s most of the teams on WSU’s schedule until Gonzaga would probably have trouble winning in DII this year. WSU just doesn’t have the bodies to match up with GU, especially with the emergence on Sacre and Harris inside.

by fosterj314 on Nov 15, 2009 7:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I don't think anyone is arguing who's "better"

CougCenter

by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Weird Post

There isn’t evidence to say either team has the advantage. Sure, Gonzaga has a better history overall in the last 10 years but, as its been well documented, they are young this year with a lot of turnover as well.

What would they possibly have held back from this game? If anything, they would have tried things to see if they can run them versus Michigan State.

If things go well, we’ll play Oklahoma before Gonzaga, who is currently ranked #16. I’m not going to argue our non-conference schedule is any better than the Zags, but our strength of schedule will likely be better by the end of the year, even in a down year for the Pac10.

Gonzaga is thin just like we are. When you refer to bodies I guess I just don’t know what you mean. Sure, Sacre is 7 feet, and he does scare me, but it may just be fear of the unknown, since I have never actually seen him play a good game. Same with Harris. Hard to say he’s emerged when he’s played one college basketball game.

by mmevans15 on Nov 15, 2009 9:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Saving it for MSU

This isn’t football. Coaches don’t"save it" or hide their stuff. Every team has tape and nothing you will do on a basketball court will be new to or shock another team. Under Bennett, we ran an offense where I could tell you what the motion and first second and third option would be just from the playcalls. Few runs the same offense he has, and theres nothing he’s trying to hide.

You guys haven’t proven anything and all this big talk of Sacre and Harris is the same as our talk of our unproven talents. There is no way either GU or WSU can definitively say they will beat the other in a game that happens a month from now with what we know from one game.

Boldin’s good, Klays good. Moore can run the point, Goodson made a sweet layup in the tournament. Casto is a beast. That’s all we know.

by cougfan on Nov 15, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Goodson made a sweet layup in the tournament.

That is good stuff. Also, Bone driving a Dodge Stratus is good stuff, true or not.

by donkeyjon12 on Nov 16, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The emergence of Sacre and Harris?

Will see how those boys match up with MSU on Tuesday. And then with the Cougs on Dec. 2nd.

I would also be curious what the Zags would be saving for MSU? An 8 footer no one knows they have? Maybe under hand free throws? This is b-ball…Zags brought everything they had and came away with a nice result…it just wasn’t as impressive as the young Cougs.

Oh and the Cougs will likely play Oklahoma before Gonzaga.

by donkeyjon12 on Nov 15, 2009 8:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs