On Belichick's decision (or, Why results-based analysis is stupid and how it applies to WSU)
I realize I'm a little late to this party, but I started this yesterday and finally was able to get it finished. Besides, the point isn't necessarily Belichick -- it's what the decision represents. So without further ado ...
Unless you live under a rock, you've heard that the Patriots unsuccessfully went for it on 4th-and-2 from their own 28 while up by six points with just 2:08 remaining on Sunday Night Football against the Colts. And -- again -- unless you live under a rock, you've no doubt heard the lambasting New England coach Bill Belicheck has received at the hands of the ubiquitous "media" for his now dubious decision.
Except that I don't think it's all that dubious.
I'll readily admit that as I watched the Patriots line up, I openly questioned it. And after the play failed, I questioned it further. But then, in all of my open questioning, I said this: "I mean, I can understand how he reached that decision, but I just don't get it." That made me think.
Was I questioning the decision, or the result?
At first blush, the difference might seem insignificant. After all, as the mainstream media likes to remind us all -- every second of every day -- sports is a bottom-line business. Either you win or you don't, and the reasons you win or don't win are really only useful for talk show fodder.
But questioning the decision (which is based on a process) and the result (which is usually based on an incalculable number of variables completely out of the control of the decision maker) are two different things entirely -- much different than most people ever want to recognize. After all, if the decision doesn't generate the desired result, someone has to be to blame, right?
I'm reminded of this matrix from "Winning Decisions" by Russo and Schoemaker, introduced to me by Paul DePodesta:
| GOOD RESULT | BAD RESULT | |
| GOOD PROCESS | Deserved Success | Tough Break |
| BAD PROCESS | Dumb Luck | Poetic Justice |
I would argue that Belichick's decision is squarely in the upper right corner. Here's why.
A number of you -- like the media -- would argue that Belichick's decision was pure folly, actually decreasing the Patriots' chances of winning the game. That's simply untrue. Brian Burke explains why at The Fifth Down, but I like Joe Posnanski's simplified summary of Burke's writing better:
His explanation is simply this: A team picks up fourth and two about 60 percent of the time — and we all know that a fourth down conversion in this case means certain victory. On the flip side: A team would score a game-winning touchdown from the 30 about 53 percent of the time. This leads to this formula — the first part is the 60% multiplied by 1 (1 signifying the certain victory if the play is converted). The second part is 40 percent multiplied by the chance of winning the game if the 4th down play fails:
(.60 *1) + (.40*(1-.53)) = 78.8% chance of winning.
There you go. Burke then estimates the chance of winning if Belichick punts — that is the chance of a team going 66 yards for a touchdown in the final two minutes. He says, historically, teams get that about 30% of the time. So a punt gives the Patriots a 70% chance of winning.
And there you go — 78.8% chance of winning vs. a 70% chance if you punt. It really is clear cut. I don’t know if Belichick plays with such percentages in his mind, but instinctively he knew that his team’s best chance to win was to go for it.
Posnanski anticipates that some would argue that the Colts' chances of scoring from the 30 are higher than 53 percent, but as he rightly points out, they also have a higher chance of scoring from 66 yards, and the Patriots also have a higher chance of converting that 4th down than the average team. Essentially, it doesn't matter how you try to rig the numbers, the statistical conclusion has to remain the same.
But, of course, if football were dictated by odds and probabilities, teams would go for it on fourth down every time. But that's not the sport we watch. We watch a sport where coaches make millions of dollars a year, and any unconventional decision puts that livelihood at risk. So, conventional wisdom reigns.
Thirty one coaches would have punted on 4th-and-2 from their own 28 with 2:08 remaining.
One didn't.
Which brings me back to that matrix. Some might argue that the decision to go for it was bad process. I'd say you're not thinking big enough.
Let me ask you a question: If the Patriots convert there, are people roundly roasting Belichick for the following 48 hours? Unlikely. People might scratch their heads, but more than likely he's being praised for a gutsy move that put a game away. And that's the flaw in results-based analysis. Either the decision was the right one, or it wasn't; it shouldn't matter what the outcome was, especially when the preponderance of evidence -- years and years of good results -- suggests that the process is a good one.
Since the institution of the salary cap, no franchise in the NFL has been more successful than the New England Patriots. I'd argue they've had a pretty good process that has allowed them to be so successful. It's a process that's predicated on playing like a champion every minute of every day, whether in practice or in games. Champions are ready to take a game at any moment, no matter the game situation. Champions have an unwavering belief in their ability to do what they do.
Bill Belichick's process -- which undeniably involves creating a culture of belief in the "Patriot Way" -- has resulted in three Super Bowl victories and a 16-0 regular season. That would seem to qualify it as a good process. Did it all of a sudden become a bad process because of the result of one play? A play that failed only because a guy who normally has one of the best sets of hands on the team bobbles a catch? You can question whether it was prudent to go for it there, but to so quickly ridicule it as indefensible shows just how much safety people feel in their conventional wisdom.
If the process is good, you're more often than not going to end up in that upper left corner -- conventional wisdom be darned. But sometimes, through no fault of your own, you end up in the upper right. That doesn't make the process bad. Especially if you have years of good results to back up the process.
Which brings me around to the Cougs.
When Dick Bennett came to town, he brought a mantra: Trust the process. Let me build the team my way. Have patience. The process always works. And he had years and years of good results to back it up. When his boys lost by about 100 points to Oklahoma State, outside observers questioned the progress -- but Bennett and the players did not. Little did we know that good results were just right around the corner.
So, this is the dilemma Jim Sterk finds himself in with regards to the football team: How much does he trust Paul Wulff's process? Sure, it worked at Eastern Washington; will it work at WSU?
If we're to look at Wulff's process, we'd have to say it's got six steps:
- Weed out the bad apples, even if it means exacerbating poor results;
- Get those left to buy into the program through training and nutrition;
- Bring in your own quality guys;
- Coach all of them to trust their systems, even as they experience poor results;
- Repeat Steps 2-4 for two or three years;
- Expect good results that are now sustainable across multiple years.
This, of course, leaves Sterk with two questions. First, is this process even guaranteed to get you to step six at some point? And if you think it is, can you wait long enough to get there without completely alienating the fan base?
Through this lens, it becomes pretty clear what Wulff's biggest problem is. It's not that the team is getting killed every weekend. That stinks, but it's not a coach killer. No, his biggest issue is that fewer and fewer people are trusting his process with each passing week. He doesn't have a track record to point to like Bennett did. A statement like, "This is how we did it at Eastern and we believe in it," simply isn't a convincing argument for his process. Fair or not, nobody cares what you did at an FCS school. This is the land of the big boys.
Sterk's got some big decisions to make this offseason. Does he believe in the process? If he doesn't, he's left with no choice but to fire Wulff. However, statements from Sterk himself suggest that he does believe in the process, overall. Now, if he believes the process is good overall, but has some questionable aspects, then he has to step in and demand change. Because when the results are as bad as they have been -- as consistently as they have been -- there's really no way you can reach the conclusion that the process is just fine.
Somehow, some way, we've got to get ourselves back in that upper left-hand corner -- or, at the very least, convince fans we're living in that bottom right corner.
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70 comments
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Comments
Nicely done.
Every time an announcer says “It’s fourth down and Team A will be FORCED to punt/kick field goal” I chuckle. There is no rule in football that requires you to punt.
Belichick seems to be the only coach in Pro Football that understands that.
CougCenter WSU's second main blog
by Dancing Football on Nov 17, 2009 10:09 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Wulff is responsible for the direction of the program
After watching so many games, and especially last week, I think you were correct in the earlier thread about the OC and DC. Ball needs to take over the DC job and Levi the OC job. What we have now with Wulff’s guys just isn’t cutting it at all. You cannot, in division one, sit in cover 4 or cover 2 and let the opposing team take you to town. I’m also tired of seeing the 3-3-5 get chopped up every game. On the offensive side, it’s a mess. Basic, bland playcalling that has become more than predictable.
Wulff’s process may work for the program but we don’t know yet. What we do know is what we see on Saturdays right now. Even though we may not have the talent, the OC and DC still cannot maximize what we have. We gave him time to use his guys from Eastern, but I think they may be in over their heads.
by cougfan on Nov 17, 2009 10:11 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I can't beleive..
We ever allowed him to bring his own staff from Eastern to WSU. We should have not allowed that in the beginning. We took a risk on a D-II coach, we shouldn’t take a risk on the whole staff. Replace some of the coordinators and coaches and see if we get any results next year. If everything looks the same, Wulff will need to go.
by MattPD on Nov 17, 2009 10:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just nitpicking
FCS is commonly referred to as D-II. It is not. Division II NCAA football is a different level.
CougCenter WSU's second main blog
by Dancing Football on Nov 17, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Next year we should use a OC with D-1 experience. Levi would be nice, but I know in years pass people questioned his play calling.
I think Ball is a great coach…just check out his record. See link below.
http://wsucougars.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ball_chris01.html
by SoCalCoug on Nov 17, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree... to an extent
the coverage we’re using is preventing big plays. We’re dropping back in deep coverage, and yet, guys like Hicks and Nwachukwu and Beck are still getting the lion’s share of tackles. Do you honestly think we’d be doing better defensively if they were instead getting run by because they were lined up more shallow? I prefer aggressive defenses to soft ones, but this D gives our players the best opportunities to make plays.
I wrote in my UCLA observations that we saw some blitz packages. That’s because the matchup was one of the few that we matched up with on speed… you can see the results, was the final any different?
You throw out “even though we may not have the talent” as if you could make a slow defense execute an attacking aggressive defense as well as a fast one. It. Just. Isn’t. True.
WRT the O. Again, you’ve seen some adjustments. Who’s Byers? A freshman fullback who’s played in the last 2-3 games. But wait, our “system” doesn’t have need of a fullback. I wonder why he’s playing so much, then….?
The team already has this narrative around it regarding all of the same arguments, and the fact is, they’re not all true. We’re seeing new wrinkles, but just like the old wrinkles, the players aren’t executing against superior talent. Is some of that on the coaches? Sure. How much difference would a better coach make? I don’t know… and neither do you.
Gametime decisions like not calling TOs when it’s clear you’re not lined up, not sitting a young QB for a series to get him settled down and coached up, not making adjustments earlier in the season, keeping a TE or RB in for protection when you’re on 3rd stringers at 3 OL positions, are all legitimate criticisms, but the meme that they aren’t making adjustments just isn’t so.
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll focus on the defense
We’ve shifted to a base 3-3-5 lately. The 3-3-5 is a speed based defense; speed which we all know we don’t have. I know ideally they would like to run the 3-3-5 because it is best suited to confuse the offense and negate speed on the offensive side. This season, though, with the injuries etc we really can’t run an effective 3-3-5.
On the first play our defense was on the field, we gave up the big play. The corner thought it was cover two, Hicks thought it was cover four, the QB rolled defensive right(meaning the coverage should’ve rolled, too) and hit a wide open man down the sideline. I don’t know whether the call was 4 or 2 but it’s hard to understand how there is a mixup like that coming off the sidelines on the first play. Cover 4, which we use as our base coverage scheme it appears, is made to keep things in front of you. It also allows any decent quarterback to sit there and pick it apart, though. If we have to sit in soft coverages to prevent big plays, that’s fine but we should be able to execute the hell out of it. We can’t afford to sit in deep zones and not execute. The same goes for up front with guys missing tackles. A run like the one Prince had happens because we drop coverage and one or two tackles are missed. When we drop, running lanes open up wide. I don’t know how to solve the defensive woes, but it isn’t my job.
I’m not saying this is on the head coach. I thought it was a good idea he sat Tuel down when he was struggling and allowed him to come back. I think he’s doing just fine recruiting and getting guys to buy in. His job, as the head coach, is to implement the system and get guys to buy in. He needs to bring his players in, which he is, and build the base for him to succeed. In that respect I think it’s working. I haven’t, however, bought in to what I see on Saturdays. What you see Saturdays with respect to scheme is all on Sears and Sturdy (and maybe Ball). I’m just not seeing it, yet.
by cougfan on Nov 17, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I don't think we're far off.
We both agree it’s not being executed. Like you said, it’s predicated on speed, that’s why you have so many DBs on the field… but we’re down 3 DBs to injury. On that first TD v. UCLA, Mathews (I think) was the cover, and before the camera even panned away he was shaking his head, looking at the corner and tapping his chest, essentially saying “That’s on me.”
I described the Prince run in my UCLA note, too. He outran Stripling, Beck was turned around chasing a receiver until after Prince was past him. Hicks missed the tackle on the sideline because he took a bad angle (I’m assuming he thought Prince would go out of bounds, but he turned upfield instead). He was the ONLY one who even laid a hand on him. Not that that should make anyone feel better.
I do think adjustments are made, like I said. They just aren’t able to be executed any better for the same reasons the scheme they WANT to run can’t be executed properly.
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree and saw the same things you have lately
We’re also down LBs as well. The 3-3-5 may work when we are healthy, but not right now. I think I’d rather see a 4-3, but again our D-Line isn’t completely healthy either. We’re really in a spot where any scheme we run won’t play to our strengths on D because we don’t have many right now. I do think our line may be our biggest strength at the moment just due to the LB injuries, secondary injuries, and our inability to cover.
Execution, on the other hand, just isn’t good. Bad angles, poor tackling, and blown coverages are burning us in a bad way. I don’t know if it’s the players or if they’re in the wrong spots because of the scheme. Hicks had, in my opinion, a terrible game at safety. I wish I know what the call was on that first play but I have a feeling that was his man in cover 2 the way the CB visibly passed him off. Running after a WR after the QB was five yards past the line of scrimmage was also a facepalm moment.
by cougfan on Nov 17, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is talent and players executing
I posted this earlier in this message, but if you look at Coach Ball’s resume he can obviously coach if you get some talent around him.
http://wsucougars.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ball_chris01.html
by SoCalCoug on Nov 17, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Paul Wulff were a poker hand
A game enriched with the concepts of making accurate decisions over basing your success on outcomes…I’d be folding, without hesitation
by ReidForrest4Heisman on Nov 17, 2009 10:25 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
If Paul Wulff
had taken over this year, rather than last year, we’d be having a totally different conversation about him.
The team was on a downhill slide. 08 would have looked basically the same, regardless of who was coach. If Doba was good enough to prevent one touchdown per game, do you think he would have kept his job? Then Wulff stepping in for the 09 season would have been a totally different scenario to all but the most completely ignorant “fan.” Instead, folks look at the 5 wins from 07, ignore the 4 blowout losses, ignore the graduating seniors, ignore the horrid recruiting, ignore the bad behavior, ignore the poor offseason workouts, and expect CPW to be competitive with a turd sandwich.
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 10:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait and See
Exactly, TiltingRight. I think all the anger and frustration about the program still needs to be directed at Doba for this year and last year. I know it is cathartic to beat up on Wulff because it is embarrassing to be a Coug football fan right now. My wife’s family are all Beavers, and I am not looking forward to all the snide comments at Christmas. However, I am withholding my judgment until next year. If we are not competitive next year, I’ll consider jumping on the Anti-Wulff bandwagon. Looking on the bright side, these are the types of seasons that make victory in years to come much sweeter. Teams like the Trojans and Ducks don’t have the luxury of celebrating the tremendous victory of digging our team out of the bottom 10.
by JimtheCoug on Nov 17, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"the luxury of celebrating the tremendous victory of digging our team out of the bottom 10."
Which PR firm do you work for again? I want to hire you!
I think that should be the tagline when the turnaround comes: CougCenter. Celebrating the tremendous victory of digging our team out of the the Bottom 10.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
CougCenter
Yay! We don’t suck anymore!
109/120 and climbing!
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But he didn't take over this season.
You can’t say last years team would have been as bad with Doba as coach. I could say that Doba would have went the JC route in recruiting and won 10 games last year. That doesn’t make sense either.
You just can’t be meaningful and make things up to fit your narrative.
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Doba didn't go to a bowl in '07 with a senior-laden team, he wouldn't have won much with a totally new team the next year
It’s not making things up, it is a complete fact that Doba did not recruit at all despite not knowing whether or not he’d be fired. How many commits (or basically committed players) did we have to WSU when Doba got axed? You aren’t going to get top JC talent anyways if you haven’t already recruited them all along (or if you aren’t named USC).
TR is saying that Wulff basically had 5 weeks to bring in any sort of recruiting class for 2008, and given the state of disarray around the program it didn’t really matter who was head coach in terms of wins and losses. Wulff at least laid down the law and started making sure we got back our scholarships lost to graduation rate penalties. So evaluation of his head coaching abilities should really assume that 2009 was year one.
I don’t totally agree with TR’s conclusions, but he isn’t making up facts.
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2007 was not a senior laden team
WSU was tied for the lead with I think 15 returning starters in the Pac 10 last year. So, I will repeat, the 2007 team was not senior laden.
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess technically you are correct
So we lost eight starters (not including special teams) from 2007 to 2008, according to TiltingRight’s “how young are we” post, which was tied for third in the conference behind ASU and Stanford. Let’s also note that every team appeared to return at least 11 starters, so it’s not like 14 is exceptional. Of those eight, we lost 2 of our 3 best receivers, our QB (who was good enough that the backups rarely got any experience), our two best DEs and a decent free safety. Not irreplaceable, but pretty important positions to be losing.
Also, if I have my math correct, the 2008 seniors would have been the first full class recruited with Doba as HC, right? We have seen how good they turned out to be the last few years, probably some of which is due to Wulff’s ineptitude at game management. Sure there were a few solid players, like Gibson, Trent, Alfred, Mattingly.. but across the board we didn’t have the quality to replace the seniors.
My larger point is that the 2007 team was likely to be better than the 2008 team regardless of the coach. Doba was letting the recruiting slip and we were losing scholarships, and it seems probable that we would have continued to get worse over the next few years if we hadn’t fired him.
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
JC, I have no problem saying that Doba should have been let go
What I do have a problem is saying that the play on the field would have been the same whether Doba or Wulff was the head coach.
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 6:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
With all due respect
the man had 1 (ONE!) commit by the time he was let go. Every major contributor on his team was graduating, and the trend was ALREADY heading downhill. Is it speculation? Yep. I’ll admit that. Is it unreasonable to assume that Doba would have had a horrific year in 08? Absolutely not.
I’m not one to bash Doba. I loved him as a D coordinator, thought he was a genuinely nice guy, and appreciate everything he’s done for my University. I’ve enjoyed to NO END the years he and Price gave me through their on field efforts. He was let down by everyone around him. His players, his asst coaches, everyone.
That said, his best defenses had BIG, FAST players. The type of players that just WEREN’T on the team last year. Even playing Luapo, Wolfgramm, Sanchez and Williams last year, even assuming he does a full TD worth of scheming and coaching on D, our margin of defeat is what? 10 points less? We still have 2 wins last year, and lose to Hawaii by 4. 17 points? We beat Hawaii and end up 3-9. Once again, does that save his job?
I’m not sure how anyone puts together a scenario where that 08 team is even close to as competitive as 08, where again, we were blown out 4 times. But if you want to think I’m the one “making things up”….
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
“I’m not sure how anyone puts together a scenario where that 08 team is even close to as competitive as 07”
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
With all due respect, I don't want to get into a pissing match with you
But, get your facts strait. Doba had three commitments when he was let go: Tim Hodgdon, Jared Karstetter and Dan Spitz. In addition, Corey MacKay was going to commit to Doba when he was let go and then switched to the uw. That is why it was so easy to change his mind and commit back to WSU.
Now, it was Doba’s time to go because he didn’t produce enough to stay. But, let’s not go overboard. All coaches are not equal when it comes to on the field results. Bill Bilicheck will always get better results than Rod Rust. If you don’t know who Rod Rust is, exactly.
You cannot make a blanket statement and say that Doba and Wulff would have the same results. It is an unknown and they are different teams. Just like the coaching of Tony Bennett and Ken Bone produces a different style and different teams.
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
DK was the lone recruit
when Wulff took the reins accordning to scout at the time. The four juco’s Tilting references were Wulff’s commits in his hastily gathered ‘08 group. But even giving Spitz to Doba’s thin list, the effort was piss poor. It would have been the third consecutive year of panicked late juco adds to drive up the rating number and increase the inexperience on the field. I agree that there is no way to know, but what we do know is that the cupboard was bare and the program was on the skids. A good friend of mine is a college strength coach and was visiting the new staff in the early days of the new regime… my friend told me that they were stunned at the lack of discipline in any facet of the program. Classes, tutors, training table and weight training were a mess. Mostly optional was the term he used. He told me the EWU guys were certain that their I-AA playoff team could have given the PAC 10 Cougs all they could handle at that time. They simply couldn’t believe how lazy and weak the kids were for the most part. There were no Booses, Benders, Sasa’s or Eatons- no Fields or Childs or Trufants or Lamont Thompsons in the fold. I maintain that no coach could have won with that ‘08 team. Somehow, with the emphasis on juco’s and the attrition of ‘bad eggs’; Doba’s legacy was and is, 10 upper classmen of quality in two seasons of PAC 10 football. A shocking total in a sport that requires maturity and girth and recognition to play at a high level.
You can’t say what the result would be with either coach- but you can say that the 265 pound DT’s would be blown off the ball with regualrity for both coaches. There was neglect… a few years of it… and now it will take a few years of care to mend that hole… seasons guys… not Saturdays.
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
by hollyweirdcoug on Nov 17, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is from Rivals and I do remember the three verbals
“Shortly after Bill Doba was let go, Washington State Athletic Director Jim Sterk informed the Cougars’ three verbal commitments from the Class of 2008 that their scholarship would be honored no matter who was hired as the next head coach. Dan Spitz was relieved when he heard that.”
Again, I see no problem letting Doba go. But, get things correct. I have direct knowledge from talking to players about Wulff and all is all is not what it seems under him.
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
direct knowledge
Uh-huh. Three recruits, according to rivals, 1 over at scout. Your point is what? Let’s go crazy and call it four with the kid who left for Stanford. That alters this discussion how? I too have very direct information some good and some bad w/ current players. Most of the bad is from Doba hold overs… for what that is worth. But it doesn’t alter the lousy core of players inherited by Wulff regardless of how he coaches. I am not an apologist for PW and have said many times in these forums that I still don’t think we can accurately deduce how the new coaches are doing because the team gets beat off the ball on nearly every down. Experience matters, and there simply isn’t much on this squad. There was rot at the core and it weakened everything. WSU got cocky and lazy w/ the 10 win years, and forgot the hard work it took to get to that 10 win peak level. It remains to be seen with Wulff as to whether ‘all is what it seems or not’; but there isn’t a question as to the failure on the player personnel as Doba’s recruits reached upper class levels.
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
by hollyweirdcoug on Nov 17, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alright
I was going by scout, so I could very well be wrong, but even at three the point still remains that he was doing horribly at recruiting… but you weren’t making the case to retain him, so I’ll set that aside.
I agree with your blanket statement comment to the extent that coaching makes a difference, but I just. can. not. believe that Doba (or any other coach, for that matter) would have done markedly better with the talent on the field than Wulff did. Particularly given the injuries, and how much smaller our team was compared to every other team we faced in Conference. Keeping the same schemes would have helped because the players would know what was expected of them, but once the injuries set in, the losing sets in, the bad attitudes creep in… 08 is a disaster, regardless. Add to that, the lowly rated class of 07 (even a great coach coming in that late isn’t going to put together a great class), and you see the making of the results on the field THIS year.
I had higher expectations for 09, and am not happy with the results on the field. But with injuries (again), lots of young, small and/or slow players, I get why we’re so bad. I think he deserves through 2010 to show some serious improvement, and (assuming there is) some payoff beginning in 2011.
I don’t have any first hand knowledge regarding what goes on behind closed doors, or what the players are saying over dinner, but I’ve heard second hand accounts going both ways. I’m sure that will ALWAYS be the case when management changes, or when a team is losing. Had we been in the position to hire a Mike Holmgren or Bill Belichick or Urban Meyer or Pete Carroll we might not have had that, because succeeding at a higher level is hard to argue with. Wulff came from the Big Sky, not the NFL. But he was successful there, even if the kids (or you) want to discount it. And while that doesn’t mean he will be successful here, it’s enough of a reason for me to give him a real chance, and enough of a reason for me to defend him until he GETS that real chance.
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BTW the Doba/Rust analogy is great.
Wonderful longtime assts that just didn’t have it as the big man.
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And let me repeat myself for the zillionth time, Doba did not get the job
done and should have been let go. But, be accurate when describing the situation and don’t think that WSU would have the same record if Doba or Wulff was coaching the 2008 and 2009 teams.
We just don’t really know the answers and coaching does matter. That is why pro teams pay over 5 million a year for a great coach. That is why Florida pays millions for Urban Meyer and USC pays millions for Pete Carroll.
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 6:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think our current team would be a three TD underdog to the 2002-2003 Rose Bowl team
And by that I mean the team lining up against the 09 Cougs would be the 2002 players as they are today. We still have a few guys kicking around the NFL but the majority are probably overweight, married and happy.
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post
Here’s a story about a high school coach that has only punted once, as an act of mercy to prevent running up the score. He apparently does a lot of onside kicks too.
Nope, he’s not crazy, just playing the odds.
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 10:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I've read stories on him and listened to an interview with him on KJR
He’s done a pair of interviews with Mitch, which you can find here. The first, back on Oct. 14, is extensive and cool. The second — this morning — I have not listened to yet.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I listened to the second one
If you do listen to them, make sure you listen to the first one first. The second one will make a lot more sense.
The first one is HIGHLY recommended. Some people don’t really like Mitch Levy, but one thing that cannot be disputed is that he’s an amazing interviewer — one of the best I’ve ever listened to on a regular basis (along with Jim Rome).
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I read about the coach a while ago as well
It works for him. It may work for other coaches and it may not. Too small a sample to say one way or another. There are some coaches that win every where they go and other coaches that lose at every stop. Some coaches just have “it” and other coaches don’t.
Regarding Dick Bennett and his system versus Wulff’’s, there are HUGE differences. Even though WSU lost by 60 to Oklahoma State, if my memory is correct WSU won two Pac 10 games in Paul Graham’s last year and won seven Pac 10 games in Bennett’s first year. There was tangible evidence that Bennett’s system worked.
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Seven games is a far cry from a second place Pac-10 finish
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand what point you are making
please explain, thanks
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bennett didn't just have 7-11 success at his previous stops
He had tremendous success. It wasn’t the 7-win season that convinced us Bennett was going to get it turned around; it was the Tournament appearances with so many schools. It was the Final Four at Wisconsin.
And that’s the point I’m making with Wulff. He doesn’t have that to point to.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True
But Bennett showed an immediate improvement with much the same cast as Graham.
I think the issue is that Wulff’s “improvements” are all around the field, from some insider stories (though there are insider stories going the other way too), and from recruiting rankings. But no improvement has been seen on the field from Doba’s days. I think you know I agree with you about being patient in the long run, I’m just saying I can see why people are frustrated. Wulff does not outwardly appear to be the second coming of Bennett.
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
worth noting
what you inherit matters as well. I am not much for comparisons of hoop and football as 1 kid can turn a program around in hoop but not so in football. But Bennett used a nucleus of guys in place to win a few as the frosh developed. Dick’s team did win less games in each successive year of his tenure by the way. But we saw Weav and Low coming… i would suggest that Long and Spitz and Laurenzi and Tuel and the myriad other frosh and sophs seeing their first NCAA action are much the same. Bennett had 3 years to develop 12 kids. PW faces a turn around of over 100. The scale is so different. But I like the recruits and would feel more doom and gloom if it were a host of juniors and seniors getting whupped… but it isn’t… it will take a few more seasons to be a bowl team… turning 75 (next year 85 at last) scholies into winners is harder I think.
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
by hollyweirdcoug on Nov 17, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still confused, but I think we are on the same page or at least in the same book
We agree, Bennett had a track record at the several lower levels along with at the highest level when he was at U of Wisconsin. Wulff does not have that.
You are correct, the 7-11 season did not convince us that Bennett was going to turn it around, but it did show us that he had the program turned in the correct direction. One of these days, Wulff is going to have to have the team do something that is unexpected and that is play above themselves.
by Coug1990 on Nov 17, 2009 7:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't make my point very clearly
But you’re right. Like Lobbestael and Karstetter, we’re on the same page.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 7:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for those
that was great.
I’d love to see someone at the college level give this a try. Someone at a program like SMU, or Idaho from the last couple years. Maybe not going for it on EVERY down, but knowing that the goal is 4th and 3 to go for it, gives you a WHOLE other perspective.
I love his description of his team’s punt returns. That had me laughing. Line up a regular D, then after the ball’s kicked, RUN off the field so it can’t touch your players. If you think about it, you could have your O ready to go as soon as the whistle blows. Run out, line up and go… catch the opposing D napping/lining up.
The onside kick argument is a good one, too. If you’re kicking off 5 times per game (I wish), and get the ball back 1/5, that gives you one extra possession every game, like getting a turnover around the opponents 40 each and every game.
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
WOW, that guy is diabolically brilliant.
I thought, Ok, I can buy your argument for going for it on 4th down sometimes, but not the rest of it. Then I hear him explain how going for it on 4th and 5 from your own 5 is actually statistically better than punting. Now I am confused. Then I hear him explain his rational for the onside kicks and no punt returns, and it kind of makes sense.
I would love to see him get a job in college to see his theories really tested.
Vote for Butch!
by spencer peaty on Nov 17, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't it great?
I was listening that morning on my way to work. You should have heard the way Mitch was mocking him before he came on. Then, like you … he started to think, “You know? This kind of makes sense?”
For what it’s worth, he also thought Belichick made the right move.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I could buy everything except the punt returns
If he said they never try to block punts, why not stick 3 punt returners back there, one to always catch the return and the other two to be there in case of a fumble. It would net 10 yards from the bounce, and you could just have him fair catch it every time.
by spencer peaty on Nov 18, 2009 12:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
One thing that surprised me was that they're only 20 percent on onside kicks
I would have thought a team that practices it like crazy would be better at it than that.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 18, 2009 6:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Incidentally
my first reaction upon hearing about Bill’s 4th down call was “Wow. That’s ballsy. If it had worked, they’d be calling him a genius and wondering whether more coaches should do it.”
by TiltingRight on Nov 17, 2009 10:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Me too
I actually liked the decision when I was watching the game. However, I don’t like Brady or Belichick so I liked the result even more.
by Wazzu Willy on Nov 17, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i cant help but go back to
Doba taking the field goal off the board to go for the touchdown and we didn’t convert…
by BigWood on Nov 17, 2009 1:03 PM PST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I guess you have to consider time and score as well
Going for it on 4th and short to ice the game is different than going for it to score more points, statistically if not in attitude.
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah, im not saying its the same
But I remeber thinking the same way when that happened a few years ago to us…
by BigWood on Nov 17, 2009 3:28 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It always hurts when it doesn't work
I think I’ve blocked that memory out of my mind though, just from all the sadness
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bellicheck's Call
was a no confidence vote in his defense. Playing the percentages and all that rubbish is fine and dandy after the fact, but do you give Manning 30 yards and 2 minutes or do you make him go 70-75 with the punt? It was a foolish gambit and Bill deserves every bit of criticism he is getting for doing it. What is the % of teams making the TD with Manning at the helm? NFL stats include the guys who suck as well as the guys who are stellar… Jamarcus R drags the poll down a bit. Red Zone Manning— I suspect that number is pretty good. Field position football wins games and ignoring it loses them… the Pats lost because Bill showed no faith in his defense. The players can sugar coat it with positive comments… or they can sit down w/ Bill as coach if they bash him and the call. Former Pat Bruschi and a Belicheck idolizer, called it a slight to the D. I think: Bad call, no other way to view it.
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
by hollyweirdcoug on Nov 17, 2009 2:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
What's the difference between Manning going 70 yards with two minutes (+1 timeout) and with him only needing 30 yards?
I’d say very little. Considering how the Colts just ripped apart the tiring Patriots defense the previous drive, I’d almost go completely the other way. I think the Pats still had one timeout left – whether they did or not, Manning has a good chance to score a touchdown quickly and possibly even leave time on the clock. One decent kickoff return and a few plays would get the Pats in FG position, and we all know the Pats are perfectly capable of pulling that off.
I’d like to know how you justify your statement of “Field position football wins games and ignoring it loses them.” Obviously having good field position helps. However, just because you want good field position doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go for it. The most advanced football statistics we have in fact contradict your conventional wisdom theory, as outlined in many columns by Gregg Easterbrook which use Football Outsiders statistics (I believe). Teams “should” almost always go for it, taking away emotion / momentum / self-confidence. Those other factors play in, but do you really think that the Patriots offense is less likely to convert two yards than their defense is to stop the Colts from going 30?
In fact, you could easily spin it to say that Belicheck had MORE faith in his defense than he would have shown if he had punted. What fires a defense up more, saying “we’re going to try to win the game here, but if we don’t, I believe you guys can stop Manning from going 30 yards” or saying “I think you guys need all the help you can get to stop Manning, so we’re going to punt the ball so maybe the clock will run out before he can score on us” ? Either way, a 4 and out (good defense) is going to win the game, so which was the bigger challenge?
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn't the point
His decision doesn’t take the other teams offense into account as much as you do. A team converts 4th down and short 60% of the time. If he converts, it’s game over and he’s a genius. It’s not the team takes over at his30 vs. team takes over at their own 30. It’s making the 4th down vs. team takes over at their own 30. In that case going for it on 4th down wins. It’d be different if they only needed a fg, but since they had to get into the end zone to win, this was statistically correct.
Also, I agree with the above post.
by cougfan on Nov 17, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
of course the point is the who
It is Manning. Experts across America and fans of the sport are howling for a reason. I don’t know the data for Peyton inside the 30, but I know it s far better than when he has to go 70 yards. If you want to quote the 60% stat on fourth for the O that is great- but once again, what are the stats for Manning in the red zone by comparison? Is he more likely to score from the 30 against an exhausted defense, or do you punt it… thus taking away the two minute warning stoppage, and give Payton a long field and one time out to score a TD? Of course you can ‘spin it’ jcougar, that is exactly what you guys are doing. A more accurate question when using the term ‘most advanced football statistics’ is; Do you really think the Patriots offense is less likely to get convert 2 yards than their defense is to stop the Colts from going 70 w/ one time out. The who matters… Manning’s superior play is a factor. I might agree if the Pats were facing a lesser QB… but giving the guy who has shredded your D a short field is a bad call.
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
by hollyweirdcoug on Nov 17, 2009 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That was the whole point of the stat
The offense was more likely to convert a 4th and 2 that would end the game than the defense was to stop any NFL qb from 70 yards. I don’t care if John Elway was back there for the Colts, the stats are the same.
It may be unorthodox but it’s true. It was statistically speaking the right play.
by cougfan on Nov 17, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You're "spinning" it the other way
How does Bill telling his defense he wants to give them as much help as possible show “faith in his defense” ? He’s telling them “I have faith in you to stop Manning from going 30 yards.”
Again, you are right in saying “it is Manning.” The same Manning who has driven down the field in two minute drills many many times during his career.
I don’t always agree with Bill Simmons, but he has a great point about this sort of thing. He argues that coaches should do the opposite of what the opposing team wants them to do. Surely every Colt fan wanted the ball back in Manning’s hands with two minutes on the clock! Heck, they’d take a freak punt being downed at the 1 over the Patriot’s going for it.
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is along the lines of what Mitch Levy said on his radio show this morning
He said, “If I was sitting in Vegas with $1,000 on the Colts on the money line, which would I rather have? The Pats punting the ball back to the Colts, or the Pats going for it on that 4th and 2? Obviously, I’d rather have the ball in Manning’s hands. That tells me that maybe he made the right decision.”
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 6:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Not a knock on you, but does anyone else notice how the only people who are saying this is “indefensible” and there is “no other way to view it” are the people who thought he should have punted?
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Going against the traditional way in football is frowned upon
People know the normal call is to punt and don’t tend to look at the stats. The stats back up his decision. Then again, if he makes it everyone talks about how it was a gutsy call and he’s the genius he’s always been.
by cougfan on Nov 17, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is my entire point
This is a question of process. If the decision is part of a larger overall good process, the results really don’t matter. (Except in terms of all the discussion it generates from second guessers.)
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 17, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My guess is that if Wulff was in that position he would not have gone for it.
He punts even when his team is down two touchdowns with under 5 minutes to go… (or I suppose more likely 3 or 4 or more touchdowns… but you get the point)
by cfred on Nov 17, 2009 4:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Kyle's 2 cents.
Well, I tried posting this way earlier at school, but my laptop lost internet connection — twice — and deleted my long post. More than disheartening. I blame UW-Bothell’s craptacular internet connection. Oh that UW, always finding new ways to stick it to me because I’m a Coug.
Anyways. The one thing that I think people aren’t taking into account (at least the naysayers) is that Bill Belichick is the coach in question. Would the media be in such an uproar if, say, Tony Dungy did the same thing with the same results? I hardly think they’d be questioning him as much and negatively as the Belichick, whom the media loves to hate.
The situation reminds me of the USC v. Texas National Championship. People questioned when Pete Carroll went for it on 4th down, but they understood that he didn’t want to give Vince Young a chance to beat them. It wasn’t necessarily him not believing in his defense, it was more him believing in the other team’s QB.
Tom Brady is the best QB in the NFL (arguably). He can get 2 yards.
Peyton Manning is the 2nd best QB in the NFL (arguably). He can get 70-80 yards, especially at home.
So while this isn’t a statistical based opinion/analysis, I think it was more Belichick didn’t want to give Peyton Manning even a small chance to beat him. When you’re playing Xbox with your buddy, and have been trading TDs all game, are you suddenly going to punt it in the 4th quarter with the game on the line? No. You’re going to hit the TE on the slant or the RB in the flat. I know comparing the NFL to a video game is dumb, but why not punt it in the video game? The same logic applies. You don’t want to give the other QB a chance to beat you.
Sorry, my argument was so much better and I can’t remember word-for-word what I wanted to say, so this will have to suffice. But I hope you get the gist of what I am saying.
For the record, I think Belichick made the right call. It’s always easier to second guess someone when you have the results.
by playerkyle14 on Nov 17, 2009 7:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
video games
I think it is interesting that people never kick in video games. The same rules apply, so why not the strategies? I understand that it is tougher to play defense, and it isn’t really a good comparison, but the point is still valid. If your yards per play will statistically give you the first down, why not go for it?
It does seem like it is becoming more common, especially in the 30-50 yard line gray area where it is too close to punt and too far to kick…
by displacedcoug on Nov 17, 2009 9:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Results based in this case
I’ll play devil’s advocate for a minute and argue that results do matter for us right now. They matter due to the spot the athletic department is in. We need money, football generates revenue, ticket sales help drive revenue, and a losing and non-competitive team hurt all of these. We’re trying to push the phase 3 sales, but it’s gotta be pretty damn hard to look people in the eye and get them to buy in when the product they are seeing right now isn’t worth it. It’s tough to pay for seats, or donate to the program, when you see crap on the field.
I have season tickets and it’s taking massive will-power to drive across the state for games. I assume I’m not alone by looking at Martin Stadium lately. It will take some time to get fans back if we continue sliding. The process needs to work sooner rather than later in this case.
by cougfan on Nov 17, 2009 8:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Good point
I guess I’d have two rebuttals, but I’m not sure how true they are:
1) What coach could we afford that would have a better shot of turning things around than the coach we already have? I think we agree that the recruiting shows promise and maybe with a few staff changes we can put together a better game strategy.
2) Wouldn’t it be worse for the program (including Phase 3, season ticket sales, prestige, etc) to fire Wulff and have to continue to pay him in addition to hiring a new, supposedly better coach?
One thing that gives me hope is that Cougar fans have suffered through crap before and will continue to support the team. I don’t know if we’ve had it THIS bad before, and maybe Phase 3 has to go on hold for a few years due to declining revenue. But we will come back. Dammit, we can get behind a 4-8 team, just get us a few wins and an occasional upset!
by johnnycougar on Nov 17, 2009 10:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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