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Why the 'pack hybrid' doesn't work

EDIT NUSS: Promoted to the front page because it's a thoughtful piece with equally thoughtful discussion in the comments. If you're interested in a technical look at why our defense has been misfiring, this is a must read. Enjoy.

First, I'd like to point you to the Fanshot about Harmeling's in-game thoughts about last nights game on the CF.c boards:

Fanshot Link to Harmeling's thoughts

I wanted to highlight some of the insight Harmeling gave on the defense.  It was an eye opener as to why the "pack hybrid" isn't working.  Below are his thoughts specifically on the d:

Star-divide

On the new system:


it's very similar- but now they extended their pressure more...which can be good and bad. By definition, the Bennett "pack" defense mandates that players not guarding the ball be in a 16 foot radius of the rim, which ensures they are in position to help on any penetration. The current system doesn't demand the players be in the "pack" which to me seems a bit counter productive...

On the pack hybrid:


let me clarify- in my opinion, either you play the pack- or step out, pressure the ball heavily, deny passing lanes, and push to the baseline (like UW). Because they are trying to deny passes as well as be in the pack, it puts the players in a tough position: do I deny the pass or be in the gap to help penetration? It is very hard, if not impossible, to do both. So this type of pack "hybrid" contradicts the very rules and concepts that make the pack so successful. Hard to be consistent this way.

On whether you can play uptempo in the Bennett system:


I've been pondering that question for the past 5 years. I believe you can. However, Bennett "type" of players generally aren't great in the open court, so I believe the lack of uptempo play in that system was at least in part due to personnel. Although I must say- a team that plays somewhat uptemp and holds true to the pack D would have to be a VERY well conditioned team

The pack in itself is designed to pack the lanes, take away easy shots, and force teams to shoot over it.  What we've seen in the past from Tony's teams is if an opponent can consistently knock down a 3, we were screwed.  In order to solve this, Bone has extended the defense and is trying to get the team to jump passing lanes more often.  So, he's trying to pack the lanes, but at the same time extend and ball deny, which in itself leaves the lane open.  When we see confusion or a man wide open in the lane after a high screen, this is part of the reason why.  The pack specifically keeps all 5 within a  close radius of the hoop with everyone helping clog the middle.

Harmeling also answers why it's very tough to play a pack in an uptempo.  In the pack, you're working you butt off on D, always getting back, and constantly moving on that end of the floor.  The pack requires all 5 to get back on D as quickly as possible and assume their positions within a close radius of the hoop.  This is why you didn't see us crashing the offensive glass with more than 1 guy.  Add trying to run the floor and an uptempo offense and you may well have to carry guys off the floor.  It's just not plausible to do both, thus the switch to this hybrid.

So, why are we trying to run this defense right now?  We can't really run an uptempo offense and a pack defense and the pack-hybrid negates most of the positives of the pack.  If we tried to do both, our guards may survive, but our bigs like Casto wouldn't be able to play any serious minutes.  Not to mention the breakdown that would occur as the season wears on.

The question I pose is what do you want to see?  Should we use the athletes and scorers we have in Bone's offensive scheme and scrap the pack, moving more towards an aggressive on-ball defense?  Should we revert to the old system of a slow-down and pack defense?  Is it plausible to do both?  In my opinion, the pack hybrid needs to fall by the wayside and we should step up the on-ball pressure, our ball denies, and force the ball to the baseline as he says.  I can't see using the pack hybrid he's developing working because you're sacrificing the major principles of both the pack, and the Bone defense he installed at the other schools he's been at.

This FanPost does not necessarily reflect the views of the site's writers or editors, who may not have verified its accuracy. It does, however, reflect the views of this particular fan, which is just as important as the views of our writers or editors.

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This is excellent

It’s nice to see professional words from Harmeling put to what my amateur eye was seeing. I knew something was really screwy, but I didn’t know exactly what. All I knew was that they didn’t really look like they really had any kind of defensive philosophy at all. This explains why — they actually don’t have any kind of real defensive philosophy out there.

I hope they use the next few games against subpar competition to get this worked out. Seemed to get better over the second half of last night (at least in terms of rotations), and they’ll have lots of practice time during finals next week to get back to basics.

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 10, 2009 3:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

When Bone's pack-hybrid thinking first came about it set off alarm bells

Harmeling helped confirm what I was initially thinking. By extending the pack as Bone wanted to, you lose the fundamentals of the pack defense. Since it is designed to defend from a certain distance in (16 ft in Tony’s case), extending it takes away the strength of the defensive philosophy. Without the core ideas to focus on, the team makes mistakes and there are defensive lapses, not unlike blown coverages in football.

I really don’t know if this defense can work because by trying to combine two almost opposite principles presents a ton of problems scheme wise. Does a player jump a pass or pack it in? Do they extend the D or drop back into the lane and provide help? When they have been helping, you see shooters get left open and the team unable to close out. I’m thinking the slow closing is because of confusion with the scheme and who is supposed to handle which shooter. We’ll see how it shakes out, though.

by cougfan on Dec 10, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thx for pointing out my Fanshot. I follow Nuss' rules and now

I am responding to the story on the Fanpost. Differentiating b/t shots and posts is completely an arbitrary and capricious and now I am going to fight the man and go back to sabotaging the word requirements for Fanposts!

Now back to Harmeling’s pts. The stuff he is pointing out is spot on. Why don’t our beat reporters ask these simple questions such as how can pack D and ball deny co-exist? Hey I really don’t have a problem with playing pack D and crashing the offensive glass. Actually I don’t think pack D requires it as I view pack D as half-court D only but DB/TB used it also to slow tempo by getting all defenders back to prevent fast breaks.
I really hate hand check and deny D, like UW and K. St play and I think all it does is invite foul calls.
I would love to see Bone say goodbye to deny D and stay true to half court pack D, but allow crashing the board on offene. I am truly afraid that Bone will make us UW East and I just don’t think it will work, just like I don’t think the spread option offense will ever work at WSU, cannot get enough athletes at all the necessary positions to pull it off.
BTW: Watching our coaches interact, I have a crazy feeling that Johnson will be looking for employment elsewhere. I hate speculation, but man I’m not getting a good vibe in watching how they interact.

by ptowncoug3012 on Dec 10, 2009 10:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The way I see the pack defense....

First, fanshot is perfect for how you used it, show a link and a short description. Fanpost is more in depth, like breaking down what you see and adding opinion and more to it.

Now, as for the pack D and crashing the boards. I really can’t see those two coexisting in a productive fashion. By leaving say 3 guys on the boards and dropping two back, you leave yourself very susceptible to transition buckets which the pack is designed to prevent. The whole point of the pack is getting back to clog the lane as quickly as possible. Hence you saw a shot go up and 4 guys sprint back to the other end of the floor.

As far as tempo, as Harmeling said, it is nearly impossible to run a true pack along with Bone’s ideal tempo. We, and probably 90% of schools, just don’t have the athletes or the desired conditioning to pull it off. You would literally run all of our guys who play the 4 and 5 ragged in mere minutes. The pack D takes some serious effort on the defensive end to pull off. The conditioning for that defense alone is high. Now add in trying to get out and run and you won’t find many athletes that can survive. You wouldn’t see guys like Klay play 30 a night if we tried it. Now, if we were to also leave 3 to crash the boards, you would kill your guys. Those 3 would crash and when it wasn’t successful they would have to sprint the length of the floor to get back into position. While they aren’t in position, the defense is prone to the easy bucket.

What I’m trying to say is I don’t think it’s possible to do both in a fashion that will be successful. You either need one or the other. We have the athletes to play a ball deny and ball pressure D with an uptempo offense. If we didn’t he wouldn’t be trying to run it. It’s just not plausible to run an uptempo with the pack. The two systems don’t fit together.

Put it this way, the tempo of the defense predicates the tempo of the offense. The pack defense is designed to slow the game and make the team use the shot clock, limiting their possessions but also ours. The tempo Bone wants to run is much higher. By playing a pack and slowing it down on that end, the offensive possession count and tempo will slow significantly. By playing a more aggressive defense meant to speed it up on that end of the floor, the offensive tempo will be pushed more to a level that Bone wants. Right now, we’re caught in the middle. Ideally, he wants to force more turnovers by pressuring and extending, leading to a faster tempo on both ends. It just isn’t possible using the old defense.

by cougfan on Dec 10, 2009 11:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Harmeling's view seems spot on.

Saying that you’re “extending the pack” is an oxymoron. If you’re getting out in passing lanes to deny, you’re playing a totally different man-to-man. I think they are stuck in between right now. A lot of the intricacies of the Bennett defensive system make NO sense if you get out in the passing lanes.

In fact, until he went to UWGB, Bennett ran a much much more aggressive pressure half-court Man D. I’ve got a coaching tape from when he was at Stevens Point and it’s all about denying ball reversal + forcing the ball baseline. Tony explained this philosophy at a coaching clinic as being based on: (1) having better athletes than the competition + (2) breaking down the intricate, screening-heavy, Bob Knight influenced offences of the late ’70’s + early ’80’s that were based on ball reversal. Deny a pass and those offences clogged down.

When Dick went to UWGB he didn’t have athletes that were as good, and he noticed that offences were relying less on ball movement and screening and more on dribble penetration into the gaps that were created by denying the ball. So, he reversed pretty much everything he did on D. Instead of forcing baseline, he forced middle. Instead of denying the wing and reversal, he tape a line on the floor and put everybody inside 16’.

Anyhow, the point is you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want to play a more aggressive half court D, that’s fine. With the perimeter quickness and lack of beef the Cougs have, there’s a pretty good argument for it, but you can’t keep trying to force middle and do some of the other things that look like relics of the Bennett system that just don’t fit in with an extended D.

by Coug Friendly Canuck on Dec 10, 2009 11:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

"You can't have your cake and it it, too"

Exactly. You take take the best of both defense and combine them like captain planet. The best of both defense will, in fact, negate each other and leave you with a jumbled mess of crap. We’ve shown we can ball deny and press, like in the first half of the GU game, with success. Where we get caught is the in between stage. What to do on screens, how to help, and the core defensive philosophies are tripping them up. The core of one defense preaches packing the middle and the other forces baseline. One limits gaps inside and the other jumps passes outside, limiting the presence inside.

At their cores, they are two different defenses that fit like a square peg in a round hole. Hopefully he picks the one that fits his style of offense and goes with it.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 12:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dick Bennett is a basketball genius.

Especially on the defensive end.

CougCenter WSU's second main blog

by Dancing Football on Dec 11, 2009 6:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To expand on it a little more

The basic philosophy of the pack is to force a bad shot. The biggest win in that defense was to force a shot clock violation. It’s goal was to keep the off ball defenders inside a certain distance from the rim and in the lane, helping where necessary. Everyone gets back, gets within the 16’ and in line, and gets set in their halfcourt defense as soon as possible. They then funnel everything into the middle where 4 other guys are ready to help. The worst thing that could happen was a quick open shot in the lane.

The basic philosophy of Bone’s ideal defense is to force a quick shot or turnover. The defense is used to set up the tempo of the game. Using heavy on ball pressure and jumping passes causes turnovers, mistakes, and sometimes poor shots. More often than not, it forces quicker shots, too. The defenders aren’t in the lane, but rather sag some off the ball and are close enough to get back and jump the passing lane. Once their man has the ball, they are in their face and hounding with pressure. They don’t want teams passing around and running down the shot clock, hence the pressure and jumping the lanes. The goal is to get back on offense as soon as possible while not just clearing the way for easy buckets. In that case, I would argue the worst thing that could happen is a 35 second possession ending in a dunk.

Those of you who don’t want a UW East defense are bound to be disappointed. The defense and offense UW runs are, in part, because of Bone. Many feel he was the brains behind the gameplan when he was there at the beginning of Romar’s tenure. I know many fell in love with the pack because it brought us success, but with it the defense also brought failures. Now that we have athletes, we can successfully run an aggressive pressure based defense with a high scoring offense.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 12:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I find it funny that so many people are wistfully longing for the days of the pack

When I so distinctly remember so many tearing their hair out when a team or player went off from 3-point range against it. Not saying it’s necessarily the same people, but I’m just trying to illustrate that no defense is perfect and, conversely, there are many ways to be successful on defense.

Here’s one for you: Can anyone tell me what these two sets of numbers are?

6, 7, 19, 7, 2, 77

and

9, 66, 82, 28, 60, 111

The first set of numbers is the Cougs’ adjusted defensive efficiency from 2004-2009. The second set of numbers is UW’s over the same span. Was the Huskies’ defense as dominant? No, but it wasn’t chopped liver, either. Plus, you have to at least entertain the notion that their style of defense enhanced their offense — which the pack defense most certainly does not do — by creating more transition opportunities and thus at least mitigating (if not outright neutralizing) any difference between the WSU and UW defense.

I agree that the team needs to pick an emphasis and stick with it. But I tire of this whole “we don’t want to be UW East because UW doesn’t play defense” junk. It’s just not true. And if you’re problem is that you don’t think we have the athletes to run that kind of defensive system at WSU, you really think UW’s trio of perimeter defenders is all that much better than Moore, Capers and Thompson? I sure don’t think so …

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 11, 2009 12:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd much rather we go to a UW-like defense

It best utilizes what we have on the floor right now. We’ve got a scorer in Klay, an athletic big in Casto, a loooooooong athletic defender in more, and an athletic floor general in Moore. You tell me that isn’t suited to jump passing lanes, pressure, and get out and run from the results. Just because the D UW runs doesn’t look like the pack and is a different philosophy doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. Change may be tough for some fans, but it is necessary in order to maximize the talent we have. That’s the whole point of coaching.

The three ball is killing us right now, as it was in the pack. I would argue that it’s because we have no core defensive philosophy, leading to mixups and guys being a step slower closing out on shooters. They are, so to speak, caught in between the pack and the new philosophy. The indecision between should i be inside the 16’ mark or should i be closer to my man is killing them and allowing guys to drop 3 balls easier. Pick a defense, hammer home the core of it, and you’ll see results.

The defense that gels with the offense is surely not the pack, but is a pressure d that allows transition opportunities and a faster tempo, not a hybrid of old and new.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 12:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If you truly believed that we will continue to get the horses to play

UW East bball then great, but I am looking at the history of our program and that has not been the case.
I believe we will continue to get 2-3 tool type guys (Motum, Bjornstad, Thames come to mind) while UW will get 4-5 tool guys. Huge, huge difference! Example, Capers is a 2 tool guy. Great D and great jumping ability. Ball handling is poor, shooting touch is poor, and passing is below avg.
I think to run Bone’s uptempo you have to look at both ends of the floor just not defensively. You can’t have a magician on defense and then that same guy not be capable on the offensive end.
Again, with regard to the pack D co-existing with uptempo I don’t think you need to send guys tearing back on D to play pack D. Pack D can be used as a half-court set. All guys ultimately have to get back on any type of D including UW’s D. Remember that all defenses need your 5 guys back guarding somebody whether that is in a zone or man D.
I do agree that Bennett sent all their guys back, but my contention is that was not for pack D, but to slow fast breaks. Again, you can play pack D in half court sets, you aren’t going to stop fast breaks without sending everyone back, but again that is a philosophy.
Further, if you think the type of D that UW and K. St are running in addition to their uptempo O is less tiring than pack D and motion O then we aren’t going to see eye to eye on much.

by ptowncoug3012 on Dec 11, 2009 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"You can’t have a magician on defense and then that same guy not be capable on the offensive end. "

This guy from the past two years disagrees. So does this guy. I also think that minimizes the other things Capers does bring to the offense — namely movement and offensive rebounding. He’s a finisher, and probably the third best one on the team.

But I do agree with your assessment of the purpose of sending all the guys back. The thought was to never give up an easy basket — that if you force the other team to work, they just won’t be able to work hard enough consistently enough to get a quality shot, and if they’re not taking quality shots, they’re not making a lot of shots. Couple that with fantastic defensive rebounding, and VIOLA! You’ve got an elite defense.

An elite defense that’s not really helping your offense at all, but that’s another conversation.

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 11, 2009 9:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, IMO, Overton is at least a 3 tool guy. I am not minimizing

Capers. I gave him credit for leaping ability and his defense, but Overton can and will hit the 3 if left open. I think he shoots about 45% from behind the arc. Maybe casino could correct me on this if I am wrong. But UW has more 4 and 5 tool guys than we do. I still maintain you need the top flight guys to run what Bone wants to run.
KT is a 4 tool guy (lack of handles/slow feet clearly the missing tool), and Casto is about 3.5 tool guy and Moore is a 3 tool guy, but after that we drop to a bunch of 2 tool guys. Get more Castos/KTs and less Bjornstads, I might be a bit more optimistic.
  
BTW: I love Cougfan’s analysis below about the Zag. It was obvious there was confusion. I contend some of it was attributable to exhaustion (mental and physical) as well, which goes back to my lack of TOs called by Bone.

by ptowncoug3012 on Dec 11, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Overton has improved his shot but he's still not a great shooter

Not sure of his % this year but last year it was around 25.

by thecassino on Dec 11, 2009 7:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

While the history of our program is part of the issue

The history of basketball is also important. And basketball is shifting to a faster, more up-tempo game with a lot of dribble penetration and one-on-one play. With that being the case, it is less about recruiting athletes and more about recruiting players.

What I really mean is, as with many innovations when the mid to late 90’s saw teams move to a more up-tempo and pressing style, and then the 2000’s saw the NBA evolve into a one on one game with a few fast paced teams (Pheonix, some J-Kidd teams) HS players and coaches followed suit. Watching HS ball now, I see less set half court plays and much more up and down play. So I don’t think recruiting guys to play at WSU at a faster pace will be an impossible task, as I think more players are used to that style and capable of playing at a fast pace. It’s harder to find guys willing to go to a school that focuses on defense and possessions then guys willing to go and play up-tempo.

by 02Coug on Dec 11, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's why I evaluate guy by tools rather than type of system

they are in. When you know the tools a guy has then you can decide if he fits your system. If the guy is speed demon or can jump out of the building, those guys will obviously be better suited for up and down type game. If you got a bunch of Aron Baynes you ain’t going to be running a run n shoot offense.

by ptowncoug3012 on Dec 11, 2009 3:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thing is, the up-and-down is where Bone wants to get, not where he is

He’ll be the first to tell you he doesn’t have the personnel to do things the way he wants to do them right now. It’s going to take a little time, and probably will result in some growing pains in the meantime.

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 11, 2009 5:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that's where he wants to go, but I am not convinced he will be able to get there.

Welcome to being at Wazzu. You try to do what everyone else is doing, you run the risk of being out athleted by the superior schools.
I stil don’t get the Bjornstad kid because if Bone wants an up and down team that guy does not seem to fit his system.

by ptowncoug3012 on Dec 11, 2009 7:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's not the report from people who saw him play in high school

He’s not a gazelle, but people said he was competent getting up and down the floor with good hands.

And, for the record, I’m not convinced either. But we don’t really have any choice but to cross our fingers and hope for the best, do we?

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 11, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Lakers in the Magic Johnson era liked to run and run and run

But, they also had a center in Kareem Abdul Jabbar that didn’t. In fact, in a significant amount of possessions, he did not even make it past half court.

Even fast teams play a lot of half court basketball. So, if Bjornstad can become a good half court threat, plus play good position defense and rebound, then Bone will be very happy.

by Coug1990 on Dec 11, 2009 8:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, most good fast breaks begin with a defensive rebound and outlet

So, again, it’s not really paramount that a big man run the floor.

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 12, 2009 7:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The system and the coach lead to the recruiting

The fact is alot of the horses needed to play uptempo ball don’t want to play in the Bennett system. The latest example of a player stuck in a system that didn’t run enough was Drew Gordon. A system that produces scorers and the numbers the NBA scouts want to see entices the players. Bone has a chance to take Klay in his system, pump his offensive game up, send him to the NBA, and then be able to walk into kids living rooms and say “look at what you can be”. It something we haven’t been able to do in quite a while. The uptempo system that rewards scorers will give you more athletes, better players, and a good fit for the system he wants.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 11:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

For a BCS conference school, that second set of numbers is horrendously bad. “Chopped liver” might be preferable.

O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?

by PaulThomas on Dec 11, 2009 11:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Those are out of every NCAA team (347)

So even their worst year was well above average

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 11:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I know what they're out of...

Yes, they’re better than Elon and Robert Morris and Pomona-Pitzer and Mater Dei and the Tennessee women’s team. So what?

There are about 45 bids a year that don’t go to an automatic qualifier from a small conference. Given that fact, in the last six years Washington has had one strong defense (#3 seed level), one solid defense (#7 seed level) and four defenses somewhere between “early-round NIT loser” and “don’t even make the postseason” quality.

O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?

by PaulThomas on Dec 11, 2009 11:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If we're doing it that way

We have a one seed level team, three 2 seed level teams, a 5 seed, and an NIT loser?

The point of posting the two numbers to compare was to show that UW’s defense isn’t as perceived, but is half decent. Combine that with the offense they run and voila, you have a system that worked for them.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 11:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In those years ...

UW ranked 2nd?,7th (barely behind fifth), 8th, 3rd, 5th (barely behind of 3rd) and fourth in the conference. Ranking in the top half of the conference every year but two? I would not call that chopped liver.

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 12, 2009 7:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We touched on this very briefly in the podcast.

And it feels nice to see a guy who lived and breathed the Pack for five years confirm what we all were thinking.

Something else that crossed my mind is player effort. We’ve all been pretty unimpressed with the player effort at times, and some have chocked the poor defense to that factor. Obviously, there are guys that have been slow in getting through screens and closing out shooters, but maybe that is more of a product of this pack hybrid defense putting them out of position. I’m not giving the players a free pass, but what appears to be laziness from our perspective might just be confusion or poor strategy from the player’s.

CougCenter WSU's second main blog

by Dancing Football on Dec 11, 2009 6:04 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

What does UCLA's Howland run?

Howland is known as a defensive coach. Does anyone know what kind of defense he runs? I noticed that he always has teams (except maybe this year) that are athletic and can run, but they were also shut down on defense. Bennett and Howland had some defensive battles, but I remember being beat on their athleticism and fastbreaks (Collison). I think we are becoming too athletic to play the pack defense any more (if that makes sense). I know we may lose a few more games, but this new style is fun to watch. I think I have seen more fast breaks and dunks in this season than all of the Bennett seasons.

Maybe we can run the pack defense and Bone’s offense and just not worry about the offensive rebounds.

I think in the future Bone is going to recruit more athletic players and we may see a defense like Kansas State. Pressure everywhere.

I am sure this has been discuss with our coaching staff, they maybe trying to morph this into something we don’t know or players just aren’t executing. Like Bone said in the press conference the offense is not completely installed; maybe the defense will continue to grow into something else. Just like Grady said in his Coug/Vandal recap we think about this stuff a lot, but imagine being on the coaching staff and thinking about it 24 hrs a day and also get paid to it. I would be studying defense like crazy if it were my job.

When the game is pretty tough. Don't you ever holler 'nuff, Show the world you have the stuff, Keep-a-goin. -Lone Star Dietz

by SoCalCoug on Dec 11, 2009 7:55 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Howland runs an aggressive man pressure defense

Again, running the pack along with Bone’s offense really isn’t an option. See some of the above posts for why, along with Harmeling’s thoughts on conditioning. Even leaving out offensive rebounds, you’re still running a slow down defense with a speed up offense, defeating the purpose of both. Since offensive rebounds are also a big part of his offensive scheme, leaving them out is detrimental, too.

The point I’m trying to make, is that you can be good on both ends, but the systems you are running need to match up.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 10:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Good defense doesn’t mean you don’t push the ball. Many great defensive teams use that defense to spark quick transition. But their defense is built around causing turnovers and forcing mistakes in the passing lane. This means occassionally giving up easy baskets when someone overcommitts and misses.

In contrast, the Pack is all about NEVER GIVING UP AN EASY BASKET, AT ALL COSTS. Sorry for the all caps, but I feel it would be the way the DB would talk about it. The Pack isn’t looking to create turnovers, it’s looking to keep you from getting a shot off, or at least an easy shot.

by 02Coug on Dec 11, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Howland also teaches his big men how to hedge better than anybody else

And they often do it so well that perimeter screens are useless against them.

by thecassino on Dec 11, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The players to make it work

I think we are starting to get the players we need to make the pressure defense work, but we still need more. We do not have the interior defenders to make pressure defense work. Casto is about it. Enquist and Lodwick can not shut down the interior. As far as outside pressure, Moore, Capers, Thompson (maybe), Thames have the quickness and athleticism to play pressure defense. We just can’t do it when Harthun and Kopravica. Although Kopravica is a pretty good defender. I am curious how the JC transfer will work into the fold next year. I have a feeling Bone is going to bring in a big athletic player to help us inside, which means someone will be on the outs next year.

Bone’s system and offense it pretty much what he knows, so I think we will be doing the hybrid all this year, until he can get his type of players in here. Like he said he thinks it will be about 3 years until he system is fully running. If you look at Portland State, that is about right. Hopefully, Thompson stays around that long.

When the game is pretty tough. Don't you ever holler 'nuff, Show the world you have the stuff, Keep-a-goin. -Lone Star Dietz

by SoCalCoug on Dec 11, 2009 12:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

There's no chance Klay stays that long

And you don’t need 5 terrific defenders to run a man to man aggressive defense. He has 3 quick perimeter defenders in Klay, Moore, and Capers. He has an interior shot block presence in Casto. That’s just fine to run his defense. This team and his system are not designed to be studs on the defensive end. It is, however, designed to push the tempo, force turnovers, and lead to a high powered offense.

If you’re looking for games that are 50-46, you’re not going to find them. What he needs to do is go with his defense instead of trying to create a hybrid to transition with. Not only will it benefit in the long run, but it will also create less confusion between players stuck in the pack mentality while also trying to run a high pressure, ball deny, and extended defense.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 1:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

More on the shortcomings of the hybrid

Dancing Football brought up the point earlier about whether it’s defensive effort or confusion in the system that causes lapses. It seems to me it’s some of both at this point in time.

I’m going to use the Gonzaga game as a prime example of the problems. I don’t have the stats in front of me or a game tape to look at so I’ll do this from memory. In the first half, we played a high level of defense and outplayed our opponents. We saw multiple possessions where the defense forced turnovers by jumping the passing lanes and creating steals or deflections. This is the strength of Bone’s ideal defense. In addition, we were worried about Sacre burning us, so the strategy from the beginning was to double him from the weak side post. That meant every single time he touched the ball, the 4 was coming over to double him, with the weak side perimeter defender sagging in to cover the gap. This worked fine, as evidenced by Sacre’s lack of effectiveness. This defense was more like the one Bone wanted to run. We took what we knew about Gonzaga, put it into a gameplan, and executed.

Let’s move to the second half where it all unfolded. Gonzaga switched Sacre out for Olynk, going smaller with an interior of Harris and Olynk. Olynk plays more of a combo guard instead of being a strict interior player like Sacre. So now we have Harris down low with basically 4 guards outside. We decided to double Harris every time he touched it now, instead of Sacre who was on the bench. The problem with it was that Few adjusted and moved Harris more towards the high post. We would big-big double again, and it wasn’t pretty. I believe Harris had a top ten play when he avoided the pathetic double by Enquist into a wide open lane for the dunk. I bring up this play because it illustrates being caught between the defenses. We were double the same way we do in the pack, except in the high post, but nobody slid into the lane to clog it up. This allows a kickout, but does not allow an easy dunk. To me, that showed confusion in the system.

Finally, the biggest issue I had with the GU game was how the high screen was defended. You have two basic ways to defend a high screen: hard hedging with the big or switching. Hard hedging leaves an opening if done incorrectly, switching leads to a mismatch, but also helps avoid the ball man getting an open look from deep. In the pack, the high screen was almost always hedged by the screener’s man (Baynes). The one thing you NEVER do is go under the screen against a hot shooter without a hedge man covering you. We did and you saw the results with Bouldin. \

Finally, you also saw the screener slip the screen, receive a pass with a wide open lane, and finish with an easy bucket. In the pack, the lane would be clogged and that wouldn’t happen. With the pack extended, though, the lane was wide open and led to easy buckets. This was a failure of the system moreso than a lack of effort. Guys were caught between clogging the middle and staying with their man in case a pass came that way.

So, in my opinion, the second half of the Gonzaga game was a prime example of what happens when a coach makes an adjustment to our defense, and we try to adjust the pack back. The team ends up with confusion in the defense leading to two guys beating us. Harris and Bouldin played a two man game to perfection and lit us up by exploiting the holes in the hybrid defense. Some of the defensive mistakes have to do with poor effort, but I’d also argue that confusion over the system, over placement on the floor, and over who helps where contribute to the problems we see.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 1:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good post Cougfan

Some coaches like Bobby Knight and Dick Bennett believed you teach one thing and become great at that one thing.

Other coaches like to teach a variety of options and use the best one in a particular situation.

Both styles or systems are successful.

For the last six years, WSU has learned one way. It will take time for the players to be able to switch to the best option in game. I think the coach can install one game plan and when the other team adjusts, the players have not been able to change midstream to another game plan yet. It will happen, but it will take longer than 9 games to change the mindset.

by Coug1990 on Dec 11, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Knight called that...

… “simplicity and execution” against “surprise and change”.

Of course, being the General, he basically insinuated that the latter was for morons that didn’t know what they were doing by identifying Dale Brown with that style of coaching.

by Coug Friendly Canuck on Dec 12, 2009 7:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Casto was

in trouble w/ Bone at the end of the Zag game for this very scenario. He was caught out of position and gave away the lane 3 times late for dunks and got a seat on the pine for his efforts… or lack therein. Terrific post cougfan- quite astute. There is much to be said for experience and Casto must ‘relearn’ after his year of task master Bennett ball- and the other bigs, not as athletic must learn spacing that allows them to pop out an pop back with the personnel on the floor at the time. My guess is that the three ball defending will improve as the guys get to know each other. We haven’t seen one yet but the Zag game screamed for a box and 1 w/ Capers denying Boldin the outside ball. The bigs have been in zones and rarely have faced players of their caliber in HS and with the clear limited skills of Bjorn and Enq and Abe out of position, this will clearly take a handful of games to solve. Timing and that knowledge of your teammates was such a pleasure w/ the vets in Tony Ball… we will writhe w/ this teams growing pains on D.

If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.

by hollyweirdcoug on Dec 12, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What are the stats showing about the changes in the defense?

Although its early in the season, there are some numbers from Kenpom that indicates something is different about this defense. Check out the 3pt shots per field goal attempts number (41.4%). This is 7 to 12% higher than any year going back to ’04. Point distribution shows the same movement. This team is forcing its opposition to get their points from beyond the arc. Does this mean we are doing a better job of keeping the ball outside the line or just making it too easy to shoot that outside shot?

by Cougwatch on Dec 11, 2009 2:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting stat

There is a saying, “you live by the three, you die by the three.” It is simplistic, but there will be games when an opponent can will shoot the three and WSU will be in trouble and there will be games when the shot isn’t falling and WSU wins easily.

by Coug1990 on Dec 11, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But that's what this defense is aimed at avoiding

The whole point of extending the pack out farther is to cut down the three ball. The way to beat the pack was to get hot from deep and shoot over the top of it. We saw it time and again under the Bennetts. Bone felt like extending it out, and adding in more pressure while jumping passing lanes, would create a more effective defense.

The question we’ve all been asking is whether the high rate of three balls given up are from lack of effort is closing out on shooters or because of a system failure that is leaving players out of position. As I said above, I think it’s a bit of both. That split second where a player is between wanting to be inside that 16’ from the hoop in the pack and needing to be in position on his man is all a shooter needs.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that is quite right

I think the object of the hybrid was not to take away the opponents three point shot, but to put a hand in the opponents face when they did. Bone thought WSU gave up too many uncontested three’s last year.

by Coug1990 on Dec 11, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We're saying the same thing

Extending to get a hand in the face should cut down on 3’s made, but the opposite is happening. Obviously when teams are hitting more, there’s a flaw in the system. I think Nuss hits on the two main points, too. Teams are jacking up more threes to come back (see Idaho), and we’re not closing out in the right way (see the previous arguments).

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 4:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, I was coming at it from a different angle

Cougwatch mentioned that teams are jacking up 7% to 12% more of a percentage of their shots from three point range. So, my point was really about that WSU’s opponents offense is overly relying on the three point shot.

Now, regarding opponent three point percentage against, WSU was 35.8% last year and are currently 37% this year. Not really a big difference, especially considering this is a team in transition.

by Coug1990 on Dec 11, 2009 5:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The jump in 3 PT % may seem small but is significant

Given that the goal of going to the hybrid was to limit open 3’s and therefor cut down the 3 pt %, an increase at this stage is a cause for concern. Additionally, the bread and butter of the pack was cutting down the 2 pt %. This year though, opponents 2 and 3 pt % have gone up. Couple these together and you could infer that the defense has no identity and a lack of a guiding philosophy.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 7:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

First, I want to say I think you have done great work in this thread

I agree with most of your points to a large degree. However, I do disagree that a 1.2% increase in opponents three point percentage is significant.

I will say that whether it is 2009’s 35.8% or 2010’s 37% opponents 3-pt shooting percentage, they are both way to high. WSU did not defend the 3-pt shot last year very well, nor are they defending the 3-pt shot very well this year. Correspondingly, in 2008 WSU was 33.2%, 2007 33.1% and 2006 29.9%.

Now, let’s look at the 2-pt percentages. Currently WSU is at 44.6% compared to last years 40.1%. So, what you see is a big 4.5% jump inside the arc.

What is happening is that WSU is trying to extend their defense to defend the 3-pt shot better. But, in doing so is giving up easier baskets inside by leaving the lanes open as you wrote.

Therefore, the new defense designed to lower the 3-pt shooting percentage isn’t and combine that with the confusion and learning curve inside the arc and WSU has a huge defensive problem.

A couple of other things that should be mentioned with regard to 2-pt shooting as well. The 4-5’s of last year, Baynes, Forrest and Casto were able to clean up a lot more mistakes inside than Casto, Lodwick and Enquist. Also, Rochestie was able to stop dribble penetration better than Moore is able to do right now.

As you know, the question going forward, is this hybrid defense fatally flawed or once the players get more comfortable playing the defense, will it improve as the season goes along?

So, we are mostly in agreement. The WSU defense is not good right now for various reasons. If it can improve a bit, this team can win games in a weak Pac 10.

by Coug1990 on Dec 11, 2009 8:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The reason I say significant

Is because Bone tweaked the defense in order to try to lower 3 pt percentage. At this point, it appears those tweaks haven’t been working. I agree with Nuss that the 2-point percentage is still well above average, but was just using it to illustrate my point that neither stat has been the same.

Is any of this cause for alarm? I’d say not yet, but ask me again when we get into the conference slate. There is an obvious transition and learning curve moving from the defense we had to the defense we want to be. Many of the mistakes and miscues are fixes that just need to be hammered home in practice. Things like what to do with screens, player positioning on the floor, and who helps where are all things that can be tweaked and corrected. These aren’t as much effort issues as the are confusion issues. Couple that with increased intensity closing out on shooters, providing doubles, and weak side defense, and you’ll see a big jump in our defensive stats. I know a lot of our complaints have been a lack of effort, but I see effort and confusion in the system combining for our troubles.

Is there good news? Absolutely there is. Our team’s steal percentage jumped from 6.4 a game (nearly dead last), to 10.4 a game (middle of the pack). So the forcing turnovers and steals part is trending to where it should be in Bone’s style of defense. I don’t know if the pack-hybrid style he’s trying will work because of the points I’ve illustrated, but I also do know it’s a work in progress and that the players by no means have perfected it.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 10:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The 2-point percentage is still pretty dang good

And you could argue the jump has as much to do with losing Baynes as anything. But your overall point is valid.

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 11, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I feel compelled to point out

that you cannot compare in-season raw numbers at this point in the year to numbers from last year. WSU’s opponents so far have been, collectively speaking, terrible. The lack of SOS distorts the numbers (eg bad teams playing against better teams tend to take lots of 3-pointers).

O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?

by PaulThomas on Dec 11, 2009 11:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

See my comment below

But numbers don’t tell the whole story. If you watch this team, as we have, there are problems — there have been far too many open looks from deep, and they’re rarely challenged looks. I think if we were to look back at the nonconference numbers from last year, I think the stats would show that this team is, in fact, giving up a higher percentage of 3PA/FGA and 3P%.

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 12, 2009 7:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think a fun thing going forward

will be watching this WSU team and see how it plays defensively inside and outside the arc. I will be watching more closely on the defensive 2-pt and 3-pt stats for each game.

We’ll be able to see if this team evolves before our eyes.

by Coug1990 on Dec 12, 2009 9:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it reflects a couple of things

I think it’s a combination of opponent and execution.

1) When you play lesser opponents who are overmatched, oftentimes their best shot at staying in a game is to shoot 3’s. So I think much of that has to do with the teams we’ve played.
2) It’s obvious we’re leaving too many open 3s, whether because of bad rotations or indecision or whatever. This makes it easier for teams to get off those 3s.

Of course, as has been pointed out, the irony is that Bone’s ball pressure is supposed to result in fewer 3’s, not more …

by Jeff Nusser on Dec 11, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Point number one is spot on

After pouring over Pomeroy’s stats, the biggest one that jumped out at me was opponents point distribution:
3: 37.4%, 7th in the NCAA
2: 42.5%, almost dead last in the NCAA
FT: 20.1%, average

As you and I both suspected, teams are putting up, and subsequently burying, 3 pointers at an outlandish pace. Part of it is teams playing from behind, part of it may be that we’re leaving it to open, but whatever it is we need to make it tougher for teams to shoot the three to have sustained success.

by cougfan on Dec 11, 2009 10:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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