The starting lineup, and what that means for the rotation
As a followup to jj_fekl's FanPost, I figured it's about time I tackle not just the starting lineup, but the rotation in general -- and just what it is, from a talent perspective, that has kept this team from living up to the expectations we had for it before the season.
First of all, many people focus way too much on the wrong things when thinking about the starting lineup. They tend to think that the starting lineup should be comprised of the five best guys, since a team is presumably going to or they assume that those five guys are automatically going to get the most minutes. But that is a much too shallow view of the starting lineup.
When you think about who's starting, you also have to think about who's not starting -- and what those players not starting need to be successful when they come into the game.
When talking about the Cougs' starting lineup, obviously Taylor Rochestie, Klay Thompson and Aron Baynes are givens since they are without a doubt our three best players. That leaves you with a choice of some combination of these guys, who each have distinct strengths and weaknesses:
| Guards | Strengths | Weaknesses |
| Nikola Koprivica | Solid on-ball defender, good defensive rebounder | Mediocre outside shot, limited offensive game, can be a turnover machine |
| Marcus Capers | Solid on-ball defender, great defensive rebounder, adequate ball-handler and distributor | Extremely limited offensive game, no outside shot whatsoever |
| Forwards | Strengths | Weaknesses |
| Caleb Forrest | Good face-up shooter, good offensive rebounder, "hustle/glue guy" | Poor defensive rebounder, undersized defender against bigger 4s |
| DeAngelo Casto | Great rebounder on both ends, team's best shot blocker, can defend both bigger and smaller players | Turns the ball over a lot, best offensive move is a dunk, suffers from mental lapses on both offense and defense |
| G/F | Strengths | Weaknesses |
| Daven Harmeling | Once was an elite shooter and presumably that guy is still in there somewhere | One-dimensional offensive player even when hitting his shot, poor defensive rebounder, struggles to defend wings |
Because each of these guys brings a highly specific skillset to the court, the two players really have to compliment each other's strengths and hopefully make up for each others' deficiencies. Beyond that, the players left behind on the bench also have to be work together in much the same way, but they also have to be able to play in a unit with the guys who are on the floor when they come into the game.
First, the obvious: Harmeling is a non option because he's simply terrible -- he's bringing virtually nothing positive to the floor right now, and until he starts shooting the ball well in limited minutes, limited minutes is all he should get.
Second, I don't think Koprivica/Forrest or Capers/Casto are good options. This is where "best" vs. "most talented" comes into play. The most talented lineup pretty clearly would involve both Capers and Casto starting. But that's just not realistic. Both guys make too many errors and are just too limited offensively to be on the floor at the same time for very many minutes. Plus, you just never know what you're going to get from Casto from night to night. Some nights, he's a world beater. Other nights, he looks like he badly needs a redshirt year.
Starting Koprivica and Forrest together offers another altogether unique issue. A few people commented they like them in the starting lineup becuase of the success that starting lineup had at the beginning of the game against Cal. But you can't overlook what happened once the first subs came in the game.
- Casto comes in for Baynes about six minutes in; so far so good, as the lead quickly goes to 12-3.
- Harmeling comes in for Forrest about 30 seconds later. Again, so far so good, as the Cougs maintain their lead.
- Capers comes in for Koprivica about 1:30 later.
- You've now got a lineup of Rochestie/Thompson/Capers/Harmeling/Casto ... and Thompson needs a sub soon. So in comes Mike Harthun.
- Meanwhile, the early lead is dwindling fast.
See the problem with this? You get guys coming into the game who don't compliment each other. Seriously -- what is Rochestie supposed to do playing with Harthun, Capers, Harmeling and Casto? It's no wonder that lead disappeared faster than you can say "Hey look! Jorge Gutierrez and Derrick Low have the same hair dresser!"
Bennett even addressed this quandary on his radio show last night (thanks, Grady!):
A caller felt that the team lost a lot of its momentum against Cal when the reserves started to come in. "We had some breakdowns," said Tony, and he feels that can happen when the young kids come in. Tony feels we still have to sub - he looks at Aron at about the 16 minute mark and the other starters shortly thereafter. But he knows one of the drawbacks of subbing is that some breakdowns can occur.
When you start all your experienced players, you have no choice but to replace them with inexperienced subs, because that's the bulk of what's left on your bench. The results are predictable. You have to start guys that leave with some reliable options on the bench so that you don't have breakdowns en masse when you give the starters the rest they have to have.
This team has shown time and time again that it has the most potential when it has a good mixture of experience and youth on the floor, and starting all experienced guys fouls up your chance to do that -- you end up playing bunches of one or the other.
Because of this, I believe there really are only two options for combinations out of these five guys: Capers/Forrest and Koprivica/Casto. My preference would be Capers/Forrest. Here's my reasoning:
- Forrest is the best offensive player out of those four. If you're looking to get off to a solid start from a scoring perspective, it's valuable to have him in there.
- Capers is the best defensive rebounding guard we have, which makes up for some of Forrest's deficiency there. Additionally, with our four best offensive players on the floor around him, Capers' offensive issues get masked as well as they can.
- Casto is your first big man off the bench for Baynes around the 15- or 14-minute mark. In my mind, you're just trying to steal a few minutes here to get the big man some rest.
- Koprivica comes in for Capers or Thompson at some point.
Of course, this is why the issues that face this team have been so much bigger than just the starting lineup. Where does scoring come from when Thompson or Baynes -- or both -- are out of the lineup? There are no answers to that. That's why there's little doubt in my mind that the biggest problem Tony faces with his rotation is the absolute lack fo production from Harmeling. If Daven is shooting the way he has the past two years, this is all so much easier, because you've got a legitimate scorer coming off the bench. But that's not the case.
In an ideal world, you want reserve units that can come in and extend a lead, or at the very lease, maintain a lead. All Tony can do with this team is piece together a rotation that features units Right now, Tony has try and piece together lineups that he hopes don't fall apart. That's not a fun place for a coach to be.
Starting Capers and Forrest I think gives this team the best chance to not only get off to a fast start, but use its reserves in a way that doesn't kill their chance to win the game.
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Comments
Why do you hate Forrest/Casto
Just think of it, Forrest playing the 3 on offense and Casto guarding the 3 on defense. You would have a lineup of 6-1TR, 6-6KT, 6-7Forrest, 6-8Casto, and 6-11Baynes. Yikes!!
Can we just please try it for 3 minutes, that is all I am asking for.
by ptowncoug3012 on Feb 18, 2009 10:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
the problem
The biggest problem with that line-up is that there are only two ball handlers: KT and TR. And if we play someone like ASU, a triangle-and-two defense, where our only ball handlers are hounded by the defense the outcome will not be good. That’s why I’m supporting the Capers/Forrest, where we can add another ball handler and a legitimate scorer.
by crimson coug on Feb 18, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see it
But I think TB is trying to teach Casto to handle his own down low. Putting him out there with the other guys won’t do him any favors in the long run.
by The Coug on Feb 18, 2009 6:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I like your reasoning...
I agree with you about not starting all the experienced veterans, i mean that way when you do mix up the rotation you dont have a court full of freshmen with one senior leader TR who tries to be the floor leader, TR is not Chris Paul by any shot, he struggles sometime and tries to do too much because he feels the pressure to produce or succeed; so alot of blame for our troubles have been unfairly heaped on him. but the reality of the situation is come crunch time or later in the first half TR has teammates that are inexperienced and when he attempts to distribute the ball they dont make the right cut, arent in the right position and fail to make the right shot. TR works best when he had a reliable ball handler to go to like last year in Weaver and Low since neither of those players are present we should make do in complimenting TR with a decent scoring threat at all times..So our best option now is probably not to leave TR on the court when Klay and Baynes sub out. Thats just poor rotation and it should deffinitely be performed differently if we dont want team offensive and defensive breakdowns. TR has nobody to rely on as a legitimate offensive threat thats why i dont think we should EVER go with Capers/Casto/Harmeling and TR on the court at the same time, who does TR have to go to Harmeling with the deep ball? Casto to miss an easy layup around the basket? Capers? who always plays with a free 5 feet bubble of space because the defender is daring him to launch or clang an open jumper? or Koprivica if hes in to turn the ball over? so i think whenever Capers is in the ballgame he should be complemented with an offensive threat in forrest or Klay, and the same with Casto. Klay or Forrest should be in covering for his offensive struggles…Good points Nuss, i like your line of thought
by Wazzucrazed on Feb 18, 2009 11:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Agree
Not sure why Tony has gone from all upper classmen + Klay to pretty much all freshman. I think there always needs to be two of TR, Klay, Baynes and Forrest as they are the only scorers. Harthun just doesn’t seem ready and bringing him in with the other Freshman hasn’t worked. Really I wouldn’t mind seeing him come in with the upper classmen lineup and give Klay a breather. He can have Rochestie to help bring the ball up and he can either work for a shot or pass to TR for a shot. Capers just needs to start driving to the basket and scoring/drawing a foul/or dishing and he will bring a lot. That is about the only thing Nik has on him right now is driving and kicking a little more. Nik really isn’t an outside threat, though he has made a couple. His lack of ball handeling makes him a liability more than Capers lack of shooting. Casto is a good change of pace to give Baynes a breather, though I also like when they play together as they can rebound each others misses and makes shooting inside very difficult for opposing teams. His problem is just being young and making a lot of Freshman mistakes. And the biggest reason this team has failed this year is Harmeling. He was the guy that should have come in and given instant offense or just been that 3rd or 4th scorer that this team has desperately lacked. One more shooter such as the Sophomore Harmeling or a Mac Hopson and this team would probably at least be on the NCAA bubble.
by selahcoug on Feb 18, 2009 12:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Imagine
what our team could have been if Harmeling still had (or even IMPROVED) his shot. We’d have a solid backcourt with Baynes, Forrest, and Casto in the front. There would be less pressure on Rochestie, Capers can sub in for him and still have two shooters in the back, and we wouldn’t have to rely so much on Baynes for buckets down low when they aren’t falling for Rochestie or Thompson.
Lately we’ve been playing extremely well in the first half and just fall apart in the 2nd. When our shots arent falling, we freak out. With each consecutive missed shot, our defense stops thinking; we become more worried about scoring points and not worried enough about preventing the other team from doing just that. The ONLY player that never loses confidence is Thompson. Even when his shots are going down, he still isn’t afraid to shoot it again—unlike everyone else on our team. Rochestie panics and starts throwing up “less than perfect” shots even though our offense is run to find the best possible one. Our team doesn’t go for offensive rebounds so those hurried shots end up being points for the other team (because of the defensive lapses i mentioned earlier). Its a horrible cycle and i see it coming at every halftime.
Our team does best in the 2nd half when we’re down by a lot at the half. We play like underdogs; we play like we want to win. When we’re up by a few (or 12) at the half, it seems like we’re playing to keep the lead, not to win and once we fail to keep the lead, we play to not lose. We lose all our confidence and we become timid with the ball and we saw what effects were in both OSU games respectively.
by james_WSU on Feb 18, 2009 1:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
"Hey look! Jorge Gutierrez and Derrick Low have the same hair dresser!"
Derrick must tip better.
by jj_fekl on Feb 18, 2009 3:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

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