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Apparently, S.B. 6116 really is about Huskies vs. Cougars - and it shouldn't be

About two months ago, Grady wrote a thoughtful post about the Husky Stadium renovation and his opposition to the potential of using public funds to pay for approximately half of the anticipated $300 million bill. What ensued was a thoughtful discussion that (mostly) displayed the Internet at its very best -- ideas on each side of the issue being exchanged in a respectful way.

It seems that kind of discourse about Senate Bill 6116 exists only around here.

Today, Murray drafted an amendment he says he'll propose to the state operating budget -- an amendment that would force the WSU boosters to live with the consequences of a no-public-money-for-stadiums philosophy.

The amendment reads: "No state funds, tuition revenues, or student fees shall be used to pay for the operating expenses of intercollegiate athletic programs at any of the public research universities within the state. Any state funds or tuition revenues currently being used for this purpose shall be used for academic instruction."

That's targeted at WSU's athletic department, which, according to spokesman Bill Stevens, receives about $2 million a year from the university (or about 8 percent of the athletic department budget.)

It also could make trouble for Wazzu's Martin Stadium renovation project, which is being funded in part with student fees of $25 a semester for undergrads. WSU students voted to accept the fees in 2006 to help pay for the stadium.

"I have heard the message loud and clear, state taxes should not be used for sports," Murray told me tonight.

As the author of the piece notes, the likelihood of this kind of an amendment actually becoming law is highly unlikely, but the point is clear: Rational thought has no place in what has become a pissing match of epic proportions.

Although I will submit that an elected official should be above this kind of petty rhetoric, I'm hardly going to place the blame square on Murray. The Cougs who have gotten involved with this -- so eloquently reflected by the equally inflammatory rhetoric over at Cougfan.com -- haven't exactly comported themselves in a gentlemanly manner, either.

I'll admit that many of the Cougs' complaints are legitimate and real; while the Huskies raise a lot of good points about job creation and note that it is a public facility, there's no getting around the fact that this project as currently proposed will create a competitive advantage for the University of Washington football team -- when UW is matching the state's contribution with private funds to construct non-essential upgrades to the stadium that will substantially increase revenue into the athletic department, it's an inevitable byproduct.

And competitive advantage does matter, beyond just the happiness of fans. The athletic department is the most effective public relations tool of any university. When teams do well, everything else does well, too: WSU experienced its single largest enrollment jump after the Rose Bowl in 1997, and donations to all parts of the university increased. If you need even further proof of the effect successful athletics have, just go ask Gonzaga how their school has changed since raising the profile of the basketball program.

But you know what? A lot of Cougs need to start facing reality with regards to their position on this issue, because the bottom line is that this kind of small-minded bickering isn't any good for either university.

Here is the truth of the matter. Husky Stadium is a public facility, and the University of Washington does hold a special place in the landscape of King County that makes it a worthwhile investment for their local government. Besides, as a lot of Huskies rightly point out, to ignore that while also turning a blind eye to the public money WSU's athletic department receives from the general fund each year is hypocritical at best.

In my mind, the question really isn't whether UW should get public funds, but how much? Should UW get $150 million? Not a chance -- I think a much more reasonable request would be a percentage (50 percent? 60 percent?) of the amount it will take to bring the building up to code. The University of Washington's administrators are the ones who have let the facility fall into such an abysmal state of disrepair for the last two decades; they must not be allowed to escape that kind of blatant negligence. Once that obligation is met by a public/private partnership, then let the Huskies pay for whatever upgrades they see fit out of what's left of their privately raised dollars.

In fact, this kind of an arrangement is well within the parameters of Senate Bill 6116, which simply delegates to the King County council the authority to decide what to do with those existing tourist taxes that are currently in place to pay off Safeco Field and Qwest Field. And if you know anything about the politics of the King County council, you know the likelihood of them forking over $150 million to the University of Washington isn't real good.

Yet, so many Cougs still fight this thing tooth and nail. What's lost in the process of spending all of our Coug political capital on killing this bill? On the surface, we all now look small, whiny and petty, whether we've actively opposed this bill as individuals or not. But digging a little deeper reveals larger issues.

We've now harpooned the ability for the county to use those funds -- generated in that county -- to maintain Safeco Field and Qwest Field, lest they fall into the same state as Husky Stadium; the ability to renovate Seattle Center and potentially lure an NBA team back to Seattle (and force Clay Bennett pay his carpetbagger money in the process); and the ability to further fund arts and humanities in the area. All are worthy ventures.

But if you think bigger, it's this -- emphasis added by me:

(WSU) felt that bringing the stadium issues at the University of Washington or at Washington State to the legislature at this uncertain economic time was inappropriate ... However, I have always believed that if the University of Washington receives any funding for their stadium renovation, WSU should receive the same.

That's AD Jim Sterk, who said that Wednesday on his Cougar Chats. Wonder why you haven't heard anything from him opposing this bill? That's why. If UW gets theirs, we're going to get ours at some point, too. Imagine asking for a modest $20 million to complete Martin Stadium's renovation after the UW gets $100 million or more? I'd say our chances go up -- way up.

I'm not saying we should be advocating to get this bill passed; after all, there remains the remote possibility that the King County council does something completely absurd (a stretch, I know) and gives Washington everything they ask for. But it just doesn't make sense for us to fight this thing as vigorously as we have. If the bill were a stand-alone Husky Stadium bill, I'd understand it a lot more. But it feels like we're cutting off our nose to spite our face on this one.

Although it might already be too late, a more prudent approach would be to back off and let this bill pass, then lobby the King County council to spend the money responsibly. There are plenty of influential Cougs in that area who could do so effectively. Heck, it likely won't even take any lobbying for the council to tell the Huskies they're asking for way too much.

Let's quit making this about Huskies and Cougars, and realize that raising the profiles of both universities should be the primary concern of all of us, whether your color is purple or crimson.

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as a season ticket holder to the former-supes....

i see the positives of this bill passing…

and i’m really not against the huskies getting state money to get their stadium earthquake-ready.

the accountant in me is appalled that county money is being used to upkeep state capital though. that’s really my only concern. it should come out of the state general fund.

by BigWood on Apr 24, 2009 9:08 PM PDT reply actions  

oops, finger slipped and hit the enter key

A save the seattle center bill.

That entire place is a dump. Whether or not we get another NBA team the Key needs help (no thanks to the former sonics owners who planned to first remodel). I’d vote for a tax that rebuilt the whole thing.

And for Nuss, good post.

The Dawgs need to ask the state, but there is a reason they didn’t. Politicians test the waters before they start anything.
The Cougs who made the most noise did not do us any favors. There were pleny of ways to fight this without turning it into a school color issue. Or just sit back and hope the funds went to one of the other good causes

by woolybugger on Apr 24, 2009 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying....

I’m really saddened by the political process that’s taking place right now. I see a lot of fallout from what’s going on, and not much of it is good. If I was a Husky I’d take it personal and feel like the Cougs are standing in the way of the retro project. They’ve been saying this all along, but until lately, I didn’t buy into that line of thought.

I always felt it’s best for us and the state to let SB 6116 pass to keep the tax money coming in but spend it in a responsible manner, even if that meant every dime of the retro project had to come from donations. The mutts have enough clout to get a fair percentage of that money but to piggyback the retro project on top of other, more worthy projects that you mentioned in this post is way too political for my liking.

I think Murray is a scuzzball but he’s just doing his job, based on all the feedback he’s gotten. It’s like he’s being forced into the stand he’s taking and I can hardly blame him. Husky Stadium needs to be fixed and probably upgraded and it needs to be done in concert with the 520 project. There’s a lot of good reasons for those projects to be done in tandum.

Unfortunately, it’s a little late to take the Coug vs Husky rhetoric back as it concerns the Husky Stadium issue, and it’s had a negative effect on the well-being of our rivalry. Husky Stadium is a cash cow. We need Martin Stadium to become one too. if SB 6116 doesn’t pass, it’ll be a cold day in you-know-where before us Cougs get any support from west of the hump for any cause we might have.

I hope in the coming days there is a special session held in Olympia where something positive can be accomplished. I don’t like where this current situation is heading right now.

One last point. CF.C is not helping the cause at all. You are so right Nuss, our best course of action is to just let it go, let the bill pass. Standing in it’s way just makes us look bad, as well it should.

by SW WA Coug on Apr 24, 2009 9:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Agreed Nuss

My real question with this whole thing is how can the state regulate what students vote themselves to contribute?

by johnnycougar on Apr 24, 2009 9:52 PM PDT reply actions  

I doubt that they could

It’s all just grandstanding and posturing by Murray, anyway. Don’t read too much into it.

by Jeff Nusser on Apr 24, 2009 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great post and great responses. I think there are some valid concerns about spending tax money on renovating Husky Stadium (UW administration neglect being the best one), but so often in this debate I’ve grossly inaccurate arguments against that I’ve gotten quite defensive about it. Kudos to CougCenter for taking an informed, rational approach to this debate, unlike Cougfan and other places.

by kirkd on Apr 24, 2009 10:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks

Do we have to hug now? Because I’m not sure I’m entire comfortable with that. :-)

by Jeff Nusser on Apr 24, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nicely said Nuss

As a former Sonics employee and Coug, this bill was especially difficult for me to come to a decision on, one way or the other. The one side of me wants my Supes back, and more importantly wants my job back; while the other side feels UW athletics invested their money in numerous other directions while clearly underestimating and neglecting their upkeep on the facility, and doesn’t deserve $150 million strong for their poor planning. Like Nuss, not saying they don’t deserve some funding, but $150 is way too much.

Looking at the big picture, I think the real problem is our legislators lack of communication with their constituents, and the media, to promote honest and clear interpretations of these bills. Nothing ever gets done in this state because beyond the super-citizen that is more directly and emotionally tied to a bill, nobody else understands until its too late and is already voted on or killed at the end of a legislative session. Even one of the main guys from Save our Sonics went on KJR a few days ago and reiterated that SB 6116 is completely separate from the Husky Stadium initiative.

If its Husky Stadium that is the only thing nixing this, then put in extra verbiage excluding it from this particular bill. Allow them to go through 4 or 5 sessions like the Sonics have to do. I understand they wanted 6116 to be vague so it leaves King County to decided, but it should have been known the UW v. WSU thing would be a huge detractor to any potential success. Again, King County leadership tries to pull a fast one, yet it comes back to bite em in the…. Hopefully, this is enough for King County officials to tell UW there is no way its going to happen at $150 million, so go back to the drawing board for next year. Instead, lets get a special session to pass this “Clay give us our freakin’ 30 million, or force your boy-toy Stern to make us a deal on an NBA team!”

By the way, did anybody else hear that the Dick’s on Queen Anne is closing down? Not sure if its official or just rumor. Man, it would be nice to have something to boost the economy for Queen Anne businesses…. maybe like an NBA basketball team. Queen Anne is turning into a ghost town, somebody save it.

by LeaveItToWeaver on Apr 25, 2009 1:58 AM PDT reply actions  

Good post.

As a Dawg, the inability of the rank and file coug fan to see the relationship between UW and WSU in this instance is remarkable. Even the ordinary Dawg fan sees it.

However, I reject this silly “competitive advantage” argument. Does USC with its crappy facilities have an disadvantage over Oregon? Does Cal (with the worst facilities in the nation) have a disadvantage over Stanford and their spanking new facilities.

This is about public use of public facilities. The vast majority of the “public” lives within the confines of the western part of the state. Coug opposition just slows a process that has just one inevitable conclusion (no matter how long it takes), costs jobs, expends a ton of capital, and puts everyone’s situation in a worsening state.

"Greed is Good."
So is Rudy.

by Gekko Mojo on Apr 25, 2009 6:19 AM PDT reply actions  

Reject it all you want

You can say the world is flat over and over again. Doesn’t make it true.

by Jeff Nusser on Apr 25, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

excuse me sir

HS is state owned go make those aurgements to the state. When you get there make sure to tell them you don’t use state funds for your AD and what the ROI would be.

Now take all your arguements a point them at the Seattle Center. Not just the Key, but the entire center. And think about the impact on the citizens. Tell me what is a better cause? Which one would potentially impact tourisim more (another HS fav). How about jobs? Not just for the remodel, year round. More people would go there 365 days a year if it wasn’t the hole that it is. It should be the crown jewel of the city like it once was.

I’m not sure why I ty[ed anything more than the first sentence, but why not.

by woolybugger on Apr 25, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great Post

I’ve been bothered, tremendously, by all the Cougs arguing against Husky stadium and saying “it’s not a Coug/Husky” think but sending out emails to all their Coug friends. Husky stadium needs to be fixed, just to make it safe if not to also improve the game day experience. Some public money should go into that, as it is a public stadium that is used by more groups then a Qwest or Safeco.

Cougs shouldn’t try and shoot down anything that improves the UW, as it is likely to come our way as well. We can root against each other on the field, but we have to understand we are both publicly funded universities in a state with a budget crisis. We are in this together off the field.

by 02Coug on Apr 25, 2009 9:23 AM PDT reply actions  

Good Stuff

Initially, I was one of those “outraged” Coug fans that joined the “Wazzu fans against UW’s proposed money grab” group on facebook. (the passive-aggressive way to take a political stand!) As time went on I realized, in part thanks to that discussion of Grady’s post, that I was only denying any argument for the funding because of my hatred of Husky sports teams. I get mass emails and FB messages from Mike Bernard on a consistent basis, and they have become increasingly petty and his argument has lost much of its initial impact. It has been said many times throughout this post and thread, if we deny UW money now you better believe they will do the same to us. The sad reality has been brought to our attention during the Apple Cup saga, our athletics needs more money and we need the money more than UW does.

This is where per game statistics go to die.

CougCenter

by Craig Powers on Apr 25, 2009 9:54 AM PDT reply actions  

Also

Bernard’s last few emails have ended in “the Cougar nation is on a role!” Makes me chuckle.

This is where per game statistics go to die.

CougCenter

by Craig Powers on Apr 25, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

I ended up joining that group too.

But I don’t regret doing so.

This IS outrageous…and NOT because it’s using public money to fund a stadium, but the timing of it all. There have been MASSIVE cuts to healthcare and education in this state, and we’re going to go ahead and pay for a stadium renovation instead?

When we had people in the government and city saying that using public funds for a Key Arena renovation wasn’t much of an option, I accepted that arguement even though it meant one of my favorite teams was doomed to leave town. Now when the economy is even worse off we’re going to renovate Husky Stadium?

I’m sorry, but this stinks. People toss around the phrase “job creation” like it’s some magical potion that cures all ills, but the fact of the matter is that there wont be nearly enough jobs created renovating Husky stadium to off-set all of the jobs lost by teachers and the cuts to the healthcare sector. Did you know, for example, that Washington, as of April 1st, no longer has a poison control center? It is ridiculous that this bill has survived in this economic climate for as long as it has. There are other ways to “stimlulate” the economy.

by Omerta on Apr 27, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

You’re setting up a false argument here. First off, you have to keep in mind what funds were being targeted and from where they come. Taking money that is generated in King County and spending it elsewhere is not fair to the County, and might not even be legal (I don’t know the State Constitution well enough to know for sure).

So if you’re talking about cuts to education spending and health care spending, you need to confine the discussion with regards to this King County tax to agencies that King County funds. I’m pretty sure King County doesn’t fund any school systems, so it would have to distribute funds to school districts within the boundaries of King County, and that could be sticky for a number of reasons – do school district boundaries respect the County boundaries, and is King County allowed to contribute funding to local school districts?

Now, King County does fund a number of health and human services agencies, so that would be valid.

But here’s the bigger problem with what you’re talking about – the tax money that is being targeted won’t become available until around 2013 or so (when bonds for Safeco & Qwest are paid off). So there would be no tax money streaming in now to fund these areas of need you are talking about, not unless there’s a way to sell bonds now to raise the funds and then pay them off with the future tax money; I don’t know a lot about bonds, but I’m not real sure they can be sold to fund something like this.

From a more high-level view at the subject, also consider that the tax money being targeted is primarily a tourist tax, and Husky Stadium helps drive tourism in King County, so it’s a legitimate argument to say that one of the engines that drives this tax revenue should be eligible to see some benefits of that tax.

I would also hesitate to downplay the economic benefits of renovating Husky Stadium and Key Arena right now – those projects would be a big boost to the local construction industry, and that money would flow outward through the region in a classic example of stimulus spending. The construction would happen now when the economy needs it, and the tax revenues that pay for it wouldn’t be collected for at least 3+ years, presumably when the economy is on the way to recovery or is already recovered.

Your argument about Key Arena and the Sonics leaving is a strawman argument – it would’ve been smart business for the State to pony up money to match the City’s contribution and bring in Ballmer’s contribution, but they passed. The fact State leadership did so then doesn’t mean that we should oppose the Husky Stadium project now – they are separate issues.

by kirkd on Apr 27, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

You are right, I did not take into account the differences between County and State funding.

That being said, it would still seem to me that priorities are screwed up here. While the budget cuts to education and healthcare are state-wide, they will end up affecting the population of King County just the same…I’m not buying a renovated Husky stadium as a major tourist attraction, either. If Martin Stadium can be rennovated without the benefit of state…or county…funding, Husky stadium can as well, and furthermore, those construction jobs will still be there going that route.

I don’t know the legal trappings behind money allocation through local or state means, but it seems to me whenever people talk about stimulating the economy they talk about building new or better things…as if the construction industry is the lynchpin to economic recovery. Maybe it is…maybe I just don’t understand the problem as well as I should…but…if there be a choice…I would rather see healthcare and education buttressed with public funds then a shiny new stadium.

I am also willing to admit that, perhaps, some of my old bitterness toward the Huskies has played a role in my stance, for while as a Husky fan I might be puzzled that we’re pushing this through now, I would still be excited and looking forward to have a great place to watch my favorite team at.

by Omerta on Apr 28, 2009 3:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not buying a renovated Husky stadium as a major tourist attraction, either.

Consider that there’s usually somewhere between 5,000 & 15,000 opposing team fans that attend games at Husky Stadium (depending on the team & the availability of tickets); consider also that quite a few Husky fans travel from outside of King County to attend the games. One could quite convincingly argue that Husky Stadium draws around the same number of non King County residents into games as do Seahawks games, maybe even more.

I’m not suggesting that most tourists visit the Puget Sound reason because of Husky Stadium, but it’s a venue that does host many thousands of out-of-towners every year, and any of them that rent cars, stay in hotels or motels and eat out at restaurants are contributing to the tax fund that the UW is attempting to tap.

…it would still seem to me that priorities are screwed up here.

I sympathize with this stance. I was not happy with the region being blackmailed by the owners of the Mariners and Seahawks into paying a majority of the costs of Safeco & Qwest Fields, considering that we as residents get nothing more out of the deal than a nice place to watch the games and the pride of those teams being local. That’s nice and all, but we’re paying a lot for that privilege, with the majority of that money essentially going into these owners’ pockets. With Husky Stadium, at least we’re talking about a publicly-owned facility, and the more money that stadium generates, the less need there will be for the UW to ever come to the State legislature looking for additional funds to go towards the athletic department.

And I do support public education and health initiatives. As I pointed out, it’s not really feasible to take this particular tax and steer it towards education; public health, yes, that’s definitely a possibility.

As for the stimulus effects, I’m not an economist. But stimulus spending seems to be the majority opinion of the best way to get the economy moving again, and construction projects are a big way to implement stimulus spending. Now, you could argue that other construction projects would leave a greater benefit to the public, such as public transit, highway building/repair, rebuilding old infrastructure such as sewers, water treatment plants, electrical grids, etc. Not all of these things fall within the purview of King County, but some do.

Anyway, I’m not going to argue that the case for public funding of Husky Stadium is flawless by any means or the best possible use of public funds – there are debates to be had there. I just want to see accurate information relayed about the subject.

by kirkd on Apr 28, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure about the rest of you....

But I don’t sleep quite as well at night thinking about all this stuff. I’d be a whole lot more at ease if Husky and Coug Nations could play fair and figure this all out. I just hope it’s not too late.

by SW WA Coug on Apr 25, 2009 11:07 AM PDT reply actions  

Nuss, this might be the best take I have read on this issue.

Seriously, excellent, excellent analysis.

A big problem with a lot of WSU fans (and UW fans) is that they have an extremely narrow view of the world that says “we can’t succeed unless the other one fails”. We need to stop defining success at WSU as requiring failure at UW. Too many Coug fans would rather see UW lose than WSU win.

I don’t like nor do I support using public funds to rebuild Husky Stadium, but the manner in which Coug fans have approached this issue has not done us any favors. We look small and petty. There were better ways to attack this issue, to which your points regarding Jim Sterk’s stance is particularly compelling. We could have waited on the sidelines to see what plays out and then made sure that we were taken care of, as well. That’s never going to happen now.

I’ll tell you what bothered me the most about this issue – the WSU fan that paid for a plane and a banner to be flown around Olympia saying “No Husky Stadium bailout!”. So a WSU fan (or fans) would rather spend money to stop a bill that may or may not help fund a remodel of Husky stadium when our Atheltic Foundation is in dire need of cash. Talk about not keeping our eye on the ball.

by Scottie44 on Apr 25, 2009 11:36 AM PDT reply actions  

Unfortunately, a few people end up representing the whole university....

in a negative way. That seems pretty irresponsible for someone to actually spend the money to do something like that in the name of our school.

It took me until that last hour to see the light, thanks to this great article by Nuss. I wish I was able to see it this way a little sooner. It almost feels like it’s a little bit too late to do anything about it but maybe not. Right now is maybe the best time because everything seems to be coming out in the open. The facts speak for themselves.

A point I’d like to make is that ‘especially’ during tough economic times, it takes strong leadership qualities to push for projects that may seem unwarranted, but in the long-run actually help us. I’m pretty much all for anything that puts people to work and stimulates the flow of cash throughout a local economy. It helps the whole state. Put those tax dollars to work. That’s the way I see it. Just saying….

by SW WA Coug on Apr 25, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to pour salt on a wound, but apparently the guy that paid for that plane to be flown over the capital was a WSU trustee.

by kirkd on Apr 27, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good column...and I think you are spot on...

Sometimes people get way too emotional without thinking of the possible benefits of allowing this funding to occur.

I have looked carefully at the wording of Mr. Sterk in the past on this issue and it was always clear that he was seeing the potential benefits of this funding approved for Husky Stadium. I don’t agree that we’d “receive the same”…but imagine how nice getting $20-30 million would be for making it possible to build the luxury boxes?

by westsidecougar1 on Apr 25, 2009 3:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks for all the kind words, everyone

I had a couple of people read this before publishing because I was a little worried about how it would actually go over. I’m glad most people seem to have appreciated it, but I’m even more glad to see there are plenty of reasonable people out here who can get past their emotion to see the issue for what it is.

by Jeff Nusser on Apr 25, 2009 3:45 PM PDT reply actions  

husky stadium was dropped out of 6116 at the last minute?

Does anybody know the truth to this? Over on Save Our Sonics they are mentioning that the Husky Stadium and arts portions of the bill were removed from 6116 at the very last minute. I’m wondering if they can rally the bill through a special session and get the majority of Cougs on board.

Then, in a year or two both WSU and UW can go after state funding in a more equal approach and under a better economic climate.

by LeaveItToWeaver on Apr 28, 2009 3:18 AM PDT reply actions  

In a special session everything would be on the table again

So legislators could rewrite that bill, or any bill they choose. I’m guessing there would just be more lobbying to put Husky Stadium back into the bill.

This is where per game statistics go to die.

CougCenter

by Craig Powers on Apr 28, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

The real problem as I see it....

Isn’t necessarily what to fund but actually getting our decision makers to make a decision. They are so afraid of not getting re-elected. You can’t please everybody.

by SW WA Coug on Apr 28, 2009 10:44 AM PDT reply actions  

They've discovered that the best way to get re-elected is to not do anything

Better to irritate people by not doing anything than to actually take the chance on making people mad by doing something.

by Jeff Nusser on Apr 28, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

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