Abe Lodwick, And His Role In The Bone Offense
by Jo-Jo on Dec 27, 2010 2:15 PM PST
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PrintI would like to personally thank Coug03 for finally pulling out of my shell and getting me back to posting about Cougar basketball. I've been waiting for something to get after and a recent discussion on Abe Lodwick has inspired me. So, thank you, brother.
There seems to be a bit of a divide in the opinion of Lodwick, and his contributions to the team. Some have even voiced their opinion about his minutes, whether he's getting enough or too many. There is also a bit of a misunderstanding (in my opinion) of Lodwick's role within the offense. When Coug03 posed a very simple and straight forward question, I felt that the question couldn't be answered without going a bit deeper into the offense that the Cougs have been running this year. The question; "What position do you think he is playing on offense the majority of the time?" While many would argue that he is playing some minutes at the "3", I can say with a great deal of confidence that that is just not the case.
I'll start by addressing one of my largest pet peeves about basketball; the numeric position system. This game doesn't always break down to "this guy plays the 4" or "that guy plays the 3". Many times it is a simple as bigs and smalls, or posts and guards. Based on what we've seen so far this year, I'd say that Bone's offense is a pretty simple "screener/shooter" flex. This is a system in which two screeners will provide screens for three shooters. Those screeners loosely fall into the catagory of "bigs." Those minutes have been going to four players; Casto, Lodwick, Motum, and Simon. (Enquist gets some minutes if the team is in foul trouble) You will find these screeners hovering along the side of the key, extending out to the three point line, and even screening from the elbow and across the free-throw line.
via www.fundamentalsfirstbasketball.net
The beauty of this offense is that it is simply run, but has endless options. Those screeners screen down for the shooters who are working hard off the ball, running off of those screens in order to receive the ball. The options can range anywhere from catch and shoot, catch and curl, pick and roll, pick and pop, slip the screen ... the list goes on. But it is all built around the screener - shooter concept.
Now, back to Lodwick's role. Those of you who know me, know that I am a film junky. Whether I'm writing or not, I do an exhaustive film break down of every Cougar game I can get my hands on. Though my old friend Nuss has pulled me into the world of statistics, I still believe that the proof is in the film. Be it that I am currently living in Oklahoma (which totally sucks, by the way), I have not been able to watch every minute of this team's season. But I have broken down every bit of film that has been televised this season. Aside formbreaking the Baylor zone, Lodwick has exclusively played the role of "screener." If you were to force the issue of placing numbers on the system then you would have to consider him a 4 or a five. Playing the large majority of his minutes with either Casto or Motum on the floor, I don't think anyone would go so far as to call him a "5". At no point, however, has he played anything that resembles the "shooters" role within the offense. When he does get a chance to shoot from the outside it is as a result of playing as a "screener."
A good comparison would be the Detroit Piston's 6 to 8 years ago. Picture Rip Hamilton coming off of Rasheed Wallace screens. I don't think anyone was confusing Rasheed as a "3" in that offense. That has been the role that Lodwick has been fulfilling within the concept of this offense this season.
Again, if you wanted force the issue with the numbers, then it poses a another question; If Lodwick is playing at the "3" then who is playing the "4"? I ask this because I haven't seen one minute of play where he is on the floor without there being three guards on the court with him.
So, Coug03, to answer your question I would say that he is playing as a "screener/big." If you you were to force me to speak in the numeric language (though I don't think it really applies) I would say that he is this teams primary "4."
This FanPost does not necessarily reflect the views of the site's writers or editors, who may not have verified its accuracy. It does, however, reflect the views of this particular fan, which is just as important as the views of our writers or editors.
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Agreed. This is how I have always seen Lodwick in Bone's offense.
The only way I could see him a 3 is if Motum and Casto played with him at the same time, but I would probably consider Motum (even though he is taller) the 3 because of his offensive skill set. Lodwick has been spending a lot of time trying to get bigger in the weight room so he can fill his “screener” role more affectively and become a better rebounder.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
I don't recall seeing that lineup so far this season.
That would be interesting to see how the offense would work with three bigs like that.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
I believe it was for a couple minutes vs. Baylor
We tried to go “big” – may have even been playing zone. Can’t recall. That’s the only game I’ve seen the 3 together (& it may have been Simon instead of the other 2).
Doubt it happens in PX play, even against UCLA – which clearly has the most size inside. I still think we’d see Klay on Honeycutt in this instance (if not zone).
That makes sense, I listened to the Baylor game in the car.
I think we’ll probably go zone on UCLA and make their perimeter guys (or lack thereof) beat us.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
Agree as well. Nik defined the #4 in Bones offense to some degree
Nik was definitely more of a cutter than the current #4, but he was a great screen & pop guy, and proved size doesn’t matter. Effective rebounding, and having the ability to be a threat off the screen does.
I realize Abe is struggling with his 3, but he proved he can contribute big time a few games ago, and he is the glue on D’. The guy is great at communicating and directing traffic on the defensive end. And no one has a bigger heart on this team. Fundamentally he’s a good rebounder – unfortunately 2 inches too short. But I’ll take a good fundamental guy over a long guy with zero fundamentals.
Haven’t read the posts bashing Abe yet, but agree that he’s very complimentary as a #4 in Bone’s offense.
Abe Bashing
Read some of the other “so called” Cougar forums and there is a significant amount of Abe bashing, without cause, in my opinion, which is why I rarely check those anymore and prefer to get my information and share my occasional thoughts here in a more intelligent and thoughtful arena.
Ya, we have read those threads. This is the new name of the Anti-Abe club.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
Nice writeup Jo-Jo
Along those lines, what about getting Capers in the game more often as a “4” ? Gottlieb said today:
Bone might want to tinker with Casto at the 5, Capers at an undersized 4 and the three guards when their offense gets stagnant. Capers has value, but it sometimes gets wasted in a half-court game.
He could certainly replicate Abe’s game, minus the occasional 3 point shot but plus better rebounding and dunking ability. It’s a lineup I wouldn’t mind trying at some point.
"I mean I was like, okay, there you go, you wanna hit me? There you go, one pitch for you. You don't get it? You have no chance." ~ Felix Hernandez
Capers could be a legitimate #4
Although undersized he could be an ISO threat in the low post. Which is key in being a 4. But if you watch him when a drive is the play call Capers, Motum and Casto are the guys who attack the offensive glass. This is key in the 4 spot.
Lodwick does not which also lends to him being a 3. Offensive board list for the season:
Motum 20, Capers 20, Caston 18 then Aden at 9 and Lodwick at 7. But on D, Lodwick is right in the pack with 39 with the high being 46 by Capers.
More reason why it is tough to pinpoint what positions he is actually playing his team at. One thing is for certain he is playing to the mismatch. No PG in the country can out rebound Capers
I don't see it.
Maybe in a press D late in the game, but not otherwise. Offensively he’d serve OK, except for the fact he can’t set a decent pick. But defensively he’d get killed by most #4’s in the conference, and it’d put too much pressure on whoever is at the #5 to board. If he wasn’t giving 3-4 inches & 20+ lbs, maybe.
I'll give you three reasons why I never want to see this
1) Why would I take out a better offensive player as a big if I wanted to spark the offense? It contradicts itself. There is already enough offensive fire power on the perimeter. Which of these line-ups has more offense?; Moore, Aden, Thompson, Capers, Casto or Moore, Aden, Thompson, Simotumwick, Casto. It just doesn’t add up.
2) Numbers don’t tell the whole story. Just because Capers get’s a lot of rebounds doesn’t mean he can play as a big on this team. Capers and Lodwick rebound in very different was. Capers gets boards because he is athletic and he crashes the glass. Lodwick gets boards because of good position and boxing out. As SDCoug said, he can’t set a pick in which case they wouldn’t be able to run this offense as well so then you are sabataging your intentions.
3) It jacks up the rotation. Right now Bone is pretty obviously rotating 4 bigs and 4 guards. Moving Capers to big would mean that all of his Guard depth is on the floor at the same time. Which means a greater chance of having to 5 deep at the guard spots, and that means Dre Winston Jr. While I’m happy to have him, and I think he has a future, I’m not ready for Winston to be in the regular rotation against conference level competition. I would much prefer him getting minutes where he can rather than where he’s needed.
Bottom line it this; at this point in the season, Bone has found his rotation. It works. Why mess with it. Why take a guy who has spent 2.5 years doing a certain job, and is doing better than ever, and unnecessarily ask him to do something different? If the Cougs offense goes stagnant, its because they aren’t executing, not because of the personnel grouping.
Good thoughts
I didn’t realize he was so inept at setting screens. I guess he is rail thin. Assuming he could set screens, the offense doesn’t depreciate considerably because it gives him something to do on offense rather than be a decoy or crash the boards. My point was not that he’d be better on offense than Lodwick, it was that if we need to play him for defense at least this is a way he can contribute more on offense.
But overall, I think I agree with you.
"I mean I was like, okay, there you go, you wanna hit me? There you go, one pitch for you. You don't get it? You have no chance." ~ Felix Hernandez
by johnnycougar on Dec 27, 2010 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
For me it's not even that he's not a great screener
It’s just that he’s played as a guard for years, and gotten to be pretty damn good at it. I’m not going to take one of my best guards and play him as a big because he’s capable. Not when we’ve got others that can play that position. The day Steven Bjornstad has to start for this team is the day I consider playing Capers as a big.
odd
I didn’t recommend that Bone should put Capers there. He is obvious playing to the mismatch of Capers vs a PG sized athlete. All I said was that his offensive style is more fitting of the title of 4 than Lodwick. He will look low post and attack the rim.
Much ado about nothing on this one.
I would tend to think of Marcus Capers as an unusually short power forward
Certainly offensively. Maybe defensively.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Agreed.
I think Abe is filling is role quite well. Sure, it would be nice to see a few more of those shots go down, but many of our guys were missing in the Butler game. It happens. I think Abe is going to be a key component to some victories this year. I think many of our key players are getting more comfortable in their roles, which makes them a much more effective team, I think.
Lodwick's a solid role player
It still surprises me that he misses a lot of 3’s but Jo-Jo gives a good account of the things he does well.
I don’t mean this in a bad way but I feel like Lodwick is just keeping the 4 spot warm for Motum and Simon. The minutes are about equal for Lodwick and Motum. I would expect Motum to get more minutes as the season goes on.
Still, I enjoy Lodwick’s effort and solid fundamental play. He also seems much more confident that he was over the first 2 years especially shooting the ball. He just needs to become a lot more consistent knocking down his 3’s.
I think a more fitting example would be Rick Fox rather than Wallace
I don’t know if this is as simple as that. I used the term 3 purely to define his movement and position on the court. On Defense he is a legitimate 4 as I noted in our conversation.
But on offense I am not so sure if it is so simple. And here are my reasons.
On offense I don’t think we have a 5 if you look at styles. At times we have two point guards (Capers and Moore) at times we have two shooting guards (Thompson and Aden) at times I have even seen two power forwards (Motum and Casto) The last one seems to be less frequent but it is a tool that he uses.
I judge a 3vs4 on where you are going to find them on the drive. 4 and 5’s find low or high post to get the dish if there man plays help D. Motum and Casto do this to a “T” that is when we see the nice wide open dunk!
Where does Lodwick go? He pops corner every time, which is the behavior of a 3 on offense. Look at his production, he has shot 73 shots this year, 33 have been from beyond the arc. I agree that some of this can be attributed to a shot off the screen, but I would argue that most of it has been a result of dribble penetration or quick ball movement around a zone defense.
I don’t think I would agree that our offense can be defined as a “simple screener shooter” I agree that they use it and that Lodwick is used as a screener.
I also agree that you can’t describe our offense by the number system because we have many of the same number and I don’t think we have a 5. Everybody mentions Casto as a power forward (4). But if you ask me, I would say the Lodwick is a small forward and not a power forward. Motum and Casto play the 4 spot, Simon and Lodwick play the 3, Aden and Thompson play the 2 and Moore and Capers play the 1.
I believe I could make more of an argument for Lodwick being a 2 on OFFENSE than can be made for him being a 4 because of how he goes about getting open for looks in gaps in the parameter D. My two cents!
But I like the discussion and I am one who definitely thinks Lodwick’s upside is much higher than what we have seen.
Thank you for making my point
This is exactly why I hate the numeric system. Because people get married to it and think that it has something to do with a players attributes. It absolutely does not.
There is no universal type of play that lends itself to a “2” or a “4”. If this is how you want to look at it then I would challenge you to look into the diffrence between a what a “4” does on a hi-low set, and what a “4” does in a 1-in 4-out set.
You are right that it can’t be described as as a "simple screener shooter" offense, but at it’s base, that is exactly what it is. I didn’t feel like writing a 50 page novel about how this offense works.
The numbers were invented for the chalk board. Look at the diagram up there, how the hell does that work with two "1"s, a “2”, a “3” and a “4” as you have described. It doesn’t work. 1-5 is represented on the court at all times regardless of the personnel and their attributes.
And I don’t understand how you can say that a case can be made for him being a “2” because of how he gets his looks. If that is the case, then Sam Perkins played one hell of a “2” for the Sonics in the ’90’s. Surely if I tried to make that argument you would disagree, but it is a very comparable style of play. In the eight games I’ve watched this season, Abe has never come off a screen to get a shot, worked of a ball screen and created his own shot, or anything else that comes close to resembling what the guards do in this offense. As I wrote above, the role he has played all season has been EXCLUSSIVELY that of a big within the function of this offense. Whether you see it that way or not, that is what he is doing.
the numeric system has it's place in the NBA where there is enough talent to fill all five positions
but in college where there are what, maybe five or six true power forwards in the whole country, they don’t really make sense.
by BigWood! on Dec 27, 2010 10:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
also in youth and high school where players who can fill multiple positions are few and far between
it matters then, too.
College is more or less all point guards, small forwards and awkward centers anyway. just fill in what you can.
Yup, when I coached high school my best player played "Guy".
The Guy that rebounds, the guy that handles it, the guy that posts up, the guy that guards the other team’s best player, the guy we cleared out for. Guy.
by Coug Friendly Canuck on Dec 28, 2010 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
exactly!
which is why even on the roster Lodwick is considered a G/F. He is not a Power Forward by definition nor action. Motum and Casto are PF.
Lodwick sets screems but does not fall back towards the post afterwards, he falls off to the corner for a 3. Sam Perkins main threat was stillthe 3. Almost half of Lodwicks shots are from behind the arc. I would guess that there is not a #4 anywhere in the country with that percentage of 3s and that low of offensive rebounds.
I would agree that calling him a PF is an over simplication
But I think that is what he will play when he moves up. In many ways we just don’t operate with a PF which is why we barely get any offensive rebounds.
He has the body for it...
but I don’t think he’s ever going to learn to play facing the basket.
Exactly
I’ve never understood the “Casto is playing out of position” talk. Makes no sense given his current skill set. Maybe someday, but right now he has ZERO offensive moves outside of 3 feet over the left shoulder.
He’s an undersized (slightly) 5, simply put, with limited offensive prowess. Love his athleticism, but being an “athlete” & a good defender is his skillset.
Before thinking #4 he needs to become a better #5 first, which means developing a move over his right shoulder and even 5-7 foot jumpers. Then start thinking about developing a game in the 10-15 foot range. I’ve heard he used to shoot pretty well.
And I don’t mean to pigeon hole players into a #, especially within Bones’ offense. This is specifically talking to the PF definition, and his future.
Because I don't think your diagram is our base offensive scheme
Here is the real question, which is all we were talking about. When I watch Abe Lodwick I see a guy who plays PF on D and SF on O. No doubt the Lodwick screens, but most plays he is rolling out to the 3.
You can’t argue that his main shot is the 3 as his percentages don’t lie. The only thing you could argue is that his 3s come off of a screen, but in most cases they do not. They come off of drive penetration or quick ball rotation around the top of the zone.
This is why our offense works so well against tight big heavy zones. With those guys around the key and Thompson in the game, there will always be somebody open from 3. Especially if someone catches the ball at the elbow causing the D to collapse as someone will stay home on Thompson.
My point that led to this whole article was that Lodwick is playing two very different roles on O and D which is very hard to do. He plays PF in man D (which is why he has so many rebounds and he plays like a SF in O (Which is why he barely has any at all) I used the number of 3, because that does define a type of position in an offense. But I do not think we have 1-5 by any means
It's obvious you don't comprehend the concept of the offense.
Your whole argument is that Lodwick can’t possbily be a 4 because he shoots more threes than twos. That is a very narrow view of the game. And it isn’t difficult to play post defense and perimeter offense, it’s not that uncommon and players have been doing it for years. I tried to break it down simply and keep it Barney style, but if you need more specific diagrams, well …
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen something close to that this year. Or …
recognize this?
None of these are exact, but I know I’ve seen a lot of stuff from the Cougs that resemble these. Is it that hard to comprehend that there might be opportunities for the 4 to shoot from the perimeter? Or that it might even be a part of the offense?
Then show me...
You over simplified what I said regarding 3 pointers. It is the way in which he gets open for the shots that in my book and by every definition would make him a combo guard forward on offense. A power forward is not the only person who can and does screen in our base offense.
I think you are trying to get the number system to fit but they just don’t with this team. If you look at Lodwick’s stats and yes percentage of 3pt shots is relevant and so are his offensive rebounds.
As for whether it is hard to comprehend a 4 that shoots that much from 3, name one PF anywhere that shoots almost 50% of his shots from beyond the arc and is one of the lowest in offensive rebounds. I have been trying to think of one and can’t.
Just in my opinion I would have a real hard time seeing that he is a PF on offense. On Defense I am in total agreement.
Maybe this is where are wires crossed
I was reading back on the last post where we were talking about this and my point was simply that Lodwick plays two very different roles offense versus defense. I used the term of 3 to define his playing style which is much closer to a SF than a PF and in my opinion he is closer to a SG than a PF.
I was simply saying that Lodwick is valued and has the biggest gap between what is expected of him on offense and what is expected of him on Defense. I never intended for this to get into who’s number is what on a diagram. But I am very glad that this got you motivated again to contribute to the dialogue.
I have shown you
and this is getting tired. Is there anyone else around here that can enlighten me as to what I’m missing? Please, educate me.
Coug03, I love your zeal, man. And I love the discussion. But you need to realize that a “4” in Bone’s offense is not, and does not have the responsibilities or do the things that you want to pigeon hole a “4” into. Until you get there, it will never make sense to you. It doesn’t matter what you see him as, he is playing the “4” in Bone’s offense. It has nothing to do with his attributes, how he gets his shots, or any of that. If you were to take all names off the table, and just describe what Bone’s offense does, and what the "4"s job is within that offense, that is the job that Lodwick is doing.
The position is defined by the system, not the player, and that is where you are hung up. You are looking at it backwards. This offensive system runs (as they all do) was a 1-5. The coach has to fit his personnel into that system with the personnel that he has. To Bone’s benefit, he’s got a damn good personnel grouping to run the offense he likes to run. If he wanted to run a more traditional half-court offense (as defined by your view of what positions do what) he wouldn’t have the depth at the post to pull it off (at least not for very long).
Bone has a certain style of offense that he likes to run. He has done a nice job recruiting, and been lucky enough to enherit the type of players to make that system work. Lodwick and Simon in particular are the perfect type of player for the “4” position in this offense.
You have now forced me, to crawl back into my dungeon and disect more film in order to give a complete description of what a Bone “4” does. My week of vacation is now doomed and been gripped by an old addiction. You bastard (sarcasm).
I will end this retardedly long comment with an old favorite:
Can I do it in two words?
Pick, pop.
CougCenter, SBNation Seattle, @FloydCoug
Night Editor - SBNation.com
Apparently we are wrong, Brian.
That is what a “2” and a “3” do. Never in a million years would a “4” do something so out of character.
Honestly, I can see your frustration
A 4 does do that but I would not classify that as something a 4 would do 50% of the time. I love how your comments back are woe me, I am trying to explain this to you in all my genius. Somebody please agree with me.
The truth be told you took a comment from a prior article where I said that Lodwick plays two different roles on D he is playing against true PF and some darn good ones to date. He plays them well in the low post. And on Offense he is a shooter. I used the term 3 simply to define a role that I feel fits him better on the O side
My point was that mindset change is the hardest to make and that is taking some getting used to for him. I am not sure why you felt an article was needed about it.
So I ask you this again, is Lodwick a PF on offense?
For someone who supposedly hates the number
sorry
for someone who hates the number system you use it an lot. I think our team plays a unique lineup and that Simon and Lodwick are key chess pieces for Bone.
That is why they both are allowed to keep shooting from out there. Otherwise why wouldn’t he have lodwick screen and drop to the elbow or the flat? He does not because he knows that by extending that defensive guy out on Lodwick it opens it up for the play to be ran on the other side. If they stay on the double on Klay then it is usually Lodwick or Simon that is open in the corner. If they hit those shots then a team has to adjust back leaving fertile ground for our big names.
This does not need to be about putting an arbitrary number on a guy. If you think he plays more like a true PF, I will say ok. But don’t act like I have to or need to agree with you.
To clear up my opinion of the numeric system
yes I use it a lot. But I hate it because people have this misconception that each number has this specific attribute assigned to it, that x player can’t play y postion because he doesn’t have z skills, or that x player MUST play y position because he has z skills.
A player plays a certain position because that is what he is assigned to do WITHIN THE SCHEME OF THE OFFENSIVE SYSTEM, not because his game looks a certain way. You say that Abe is not a “true PF.” Your are right. What I am trying to tell you is that the offense that Bone has used primarily this season, does not utilize a “true PF”, it is that way by design. This scheme does not need a “true PF”, it is that way on purpose. Just because this offense doesn’t utilize a “true PF” does not mean that there isn’t a “4” on the floor. There is a “4” on the floor, it has certain responsibilities, it is designed to have responsibilities on the perimeter, and that responsibility has been given to Abe Lodwick. That is why I hate the numbers. Because many think that “4” HAS to mean “true PF.” It doesn’t.
I toured with a team once. We ran a very similar offense to the one Bone runs. Along with a lot of 4-out 1-in. Our “5” looked, and had the skill set of a “true PF.” But he was our “5.” Our “4” was 6’10" Croatian with a sweet jumper and classic Euro drives to the basket. He was not a “true PF” but he was a perfect “4” for the offensive scheme we ran. He was a match-up nightmare.
When I see A-Rod play, I see more of a shortstop. With his range and his footwork, and the way he makes plays. But it doesn’t freaking matter because when he takes the field for the Yankees he is playing 3rd base.
When I watch Lawyer Milloy play on Sunday’s, he really does look like a linebacker to me. He’s always in the box, hammering ball carriers, run blitzing. But it doesn’t freaking matter because when he takes the field for the ’Hawks, he is playing strong safety as it is designed within their defensive scheme.
When you watch Abe Lodwick, you see a guy that looks like a SG or SF. Because he plays on the perimeter, and shoots jump shots. But it doesn’t freaking matter because when he takes the court for the Cougs, he is playing the “4” as it is designed within the scheme of the offense.
Now, don’t get it twisted. When I say “4” I’m not saying “true PF.” That is why I hate the numeric system. Not because of the numbers, but because of the people who don’t understand them. People who can’t make the separation between a “true PF” and all the possible ways a coach can define a “4” within any system that they want to run. In this offense the “4” is not a “true PF.” And honestly, it’s smart, because as BigWood said there are very few “true PF” at the college level.
So if you were to take the offensive system away completely and just ask me about the personnel, the I would say the Cougs do start a PG, SG, 2xSF’s, and an undersized C (which is what I think you are saying, and I would agree with you (with the exception that you called Casto a PF and Capers a PG)). That is my opinion of the “types” of players they are. But that doesn’t mean that they are starting a “1”, “2”, 2x"3"s and “5.” The scheme still has five roles that need to be filled. And the are assigned as positions 1 thru 5 accordingly.
Your origional quetion was “What position do you think he is playing on offense the majority of the time?” My answer the that is that he is playing the “4.” Your new question (and yes, that is a new question. You are not asking it again. Because it is a completely different question) is “is Lodwick a PF on offense?” My answer to that is NO. Either you get that, or you don’t. I’m done trying to explain it. You’re right, you don’t have to agree with me. But whether you agree with me or not, truth is truth.
Somewhere along the line, someone (probable some commentator) started using the numeric system to start labeling players attributes instead of what the numbers really mean, because he thought it made him sound smart. Years later it has been adopted by the culture and been taken completely out of context. Maybe I should be the one to adapt. Maybe I’m just a crusty old bastard who’s see’s the world through a coach’s eye, but when I hear statements that sound like "he gets most of his shots from three, and he doesn’t roll to basket after he sets a screen, he goes to the corner to shoot a three. That’s what a SG or a SF does so he MUST be playing the “3”, well that sounds just plain ignorant to me. Seriously, how ridiculous would it sound if I said that because I saw Casto put the ball on the floor, drive to the basket, draw a defender and dish the ball to Motum for a lay-up (this actually did happen), that he must have been playing the “1” on that set? Pretty effing ridiculous, right? Well that’s what “Lodwick plays the 3” sounds like to me.
I’m sorry I ever started this convo. I should just let people live in their blissful world. I will now dismount my soap box with a perfectly executed tripple somersault in the pike position, into a bottle of Jim Beam and begin my 10-hour prefunk for tonight’s Bruin debunk.
by Jo-Jo on Dec 29, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Video or it didnt happen
CougCenter, SBNation Seattle, @FloydCoug
Night Editor - SBNation.com
by Brian Floyd on Dec 29, 2010 9:58 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
That is exactly why I think our wires are crossed
Look at every comment AI have made it is about Lodwick not being a true PF and how you can throw the number system out the window with this team.
All you had to say was what numeral do you think Bone puts on him in a chalk board. I would agree he would be 4.
I am sorry we got confused in the other posts but I was merely stating that Lodwick plays two roles that are polar opposites of each other and that might be effecting his shot some.
He gets posted up on down low on defense where he needs the mentality of a big and then runs down and is asked to pop 50% of his shots from downtown. I used the term 3 to identify that movement in hindsight I would have used SF.
That takes a little getting used to!
I wrote a fan post because
In order to answer your question, it would have been a very long comment. And it would have felt like thread jacking.
My question was purely what position did you think.
You would have said PF because he screens and I would have said cool, I think on offense he plays more like a 3 because of where he pops to after the screen.
The truth is that Bone’s offense philosophy will always lead to these kind of spirited debates because of how he uses his undersized bigs. My point was simply that it is not as cookie cutter as calling him a PF.
I don’t think it would have been thread jacking by any means. But I am glad that you posted it because I agree that his position is pivotal in the game plan. I will never question that, Lodwick and Simon have a key role in opening up a team by hitting the 3pt shot. And in my opinion he has to keep shooting them, even at 8/33
The term is "stretch 4".
by Coug Friendly Canuck on Dec 29, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You know what Jo Jo
I was wrong, I should have been more clear when I responded in our earlier conversation about what I meant by playing like a 3. I definitely agree that from a numbers standpoint he is a stretch 4.
Take care out there in the MW brother and Go Cougs!.
I will always maintain, and be right when I do, that Casto is not a four.
CougCenter, SBNation Seattle, @FloydCoug
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You know as well as I do there's a difference between the two bigs in Bone's system.
CougCenter, SBNation Seattle, @FloydCoug
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by Brian Floyd on Dec 27, 2010 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
You got me there, Brian
Yeah, I know. But I’m not ready to crack that nut yet. Maybe later this week I’ll do a breakdown on how the offense works as a whole, but I’m eating this beast one bite at a time. I fear that going that deep so early in this discussion would have caused some people to short circuit.
I'm gonna make you diagram some sets...
CougCenter, SBNation Seattle, @FloydCoug
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Doing rebounding right now
Then ill move on from there.
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by Brian Floyd on Dec 28, 2010 9:05 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Surely, he's closer to a 2.1...not exactly an academician.
and, I don’t expect to see him on Jeopardy anytime soon.
But man, I love the way he swats shots.
by Rex Parker Blaise on Dec 27, 2010 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
That's all well and good if he's going to fill the role of screener and rebounder
He shouldn’t shoot then. For someone who was touted as a shooter when he arrived, his numbers are dreadful: 30% from the field — 24% from 3-pt.
He is the 4th on team in most 3-pt. shots attempted (only Klay, Aden and Simon in front of him.)
There are slumps. And then there is just losing your form and ability to shoot, which I personally believe is the case here.
And what happens if he doesn't shoot?
He can, and did, hit threes in Hawaii. You tell him not to shoot, the defense sags and it throws the offense off.
Of course he’s fourth. That’s logical. Those three are the shooters, but, as the pop man, Abe is going to shoot at times. Nobody else in the offense either (a) sees the floor enough or (b) shoots well enough, to have a bunch of attempts. Simon? Not a ton of minutes. Motum? Not gonna happen. Reggie? Missed half the season. Capers? Uh. So saying he’s fourth doesn’t mean much.
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That made no sense.
He can hit threes. He did in Hawaii. He has to shoot. He will knock some down at times. He doesn’t have to be lights out.
CougCenter, SBNation Seattle, @FloydCoug
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If he keeps shooting 24% from the girls-Catholic-school-gymnasium 3-pt line....
…. then defenses are going to sag anyway.
So do you want him to just stand there?
Because he can make shots. We’ve seen him do it. Leave him open and he can bury a shot. That’s all WSU needs.
CougCenter, SBNation Seattle, @FloydCoug
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What is with all the Negative Nancys on Lodwick?
Yes, he isn’t hitting a hight percentage of 3s, but the guy has to keep shooting. Do you want him to stand at 3 land and just do nothing? Do you want him to take step 2 steps closer when he has an open 3? Do you want him to call for Klay to come over and take the ball from him and shoot the 3? Should he hold the ball for 5 to 10 seconds or restart the offense? Do you think Bone isn’t doing his job? This is college basketball, you can’t just pick from a tree a guy with experience who can guard larger players, rebound, screen, dive after the loose balls and always hit the open three. Some players need game time (and some a lot more time) to develop confidence in their jumper (unless you are Duke and you reload from year to year). From what I have heard he is a lights out shooter in practice. Koprivica’s whole junior year he couldn’t hit the 3, but his senior year he was lights out. You never know when he could start hitting the 3 consistently. I feel he is about to round the corner (but of course I could be wrong). So many are throwing the towel in on Abe, but there is reason Bone has him in there. We are not at practive every day. Apparently Bone can live with him shooting the open 3 and it isn’t ruining us, because there is other aspects he brings to the game.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
Dribbling twice and taking a few steps in might not be a bad idea
Early 80’s basketball — 14-16 footers are not a bad thing if they increase your percentage 25-30%.
Lately I have heard many coaches prefer
a player take a 3 instead of shooting a shot a couple feet closer. If you can hit a shot at a couple feet closer (if we are talking a couple feet), why not step back and get a 3…espcially in college. Many players shoot it better at the 3 line than a couple feet closer, because the 3 line gives you an exact distance to know where you are shooting from…in short a player doesn’t have to gauge his distance at the 3 line because the distance is already given to you. But I do get what you saying.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
If a guy that was a great high school shooter ...
… can’t make 3’s at this level, there’s no way in hell he’s going to be 25-30% better shooting pull-ups off the dribble. The most logical explanations for his struggles with his shot are:
1. Limited opportunity: even though he gets a lot of PT now, he’s the 5th option at all times (unless Charlieball is in effect).
2. Inferior athleticism: 6’7" guys with jump shots can always get their shot off at the high school level. At this level he’s a pretty horrendous athlete and dribbling closer to the defender is only going to make him worse, not better.
I’d love to see him get some cheap hoops around the bucket or get to the foul line, but the best thing for him to do is screen and re-screen and take the shots when they’re given to him.
by Coug Friendly Canuck on Dec 28, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed. Hahn sucked from 3 prior to our game
And he came into our game still shooting & buried us. Do you think they wanted him to quit shooting?
Abe knows he’s the 4th option of the floor; he’s smart enough to decipher that. But when he’s open he can’t think & has to simply take the shot. The more he starts to think the more he paralizes himself.
The best thing about Abe is he’s smart and realizes his role. He’s not a gunner. We’re talking 2.75 3 pointers per game, or one every 7.5 minutes. If you take away 3 of his games – 5 attempts vs. Texas PA (a meaningless game), a 3-5 performance against MSU, and a 1-4 vs. Sac St (another meaningless game) he’s only taking 2 3-pointers a game or 1 every 10.5 minutes on the court. What’s all the hubbub about? 2 friggin shots! Really? People need to relax.
Is he taking BAD shots? No, not IMO. He’s taking open 3s when he has them. And, like Hahn of Butler, he could be the one who puts the DAGGER in someone down the road.
Lay off Lodwick. He’s playing a solid role within Bone’s O and working his ass off on D!
Hahn has previous results
He shot 41% last year on over 100 attempts.
Saying Abe is a shooter, so he should keep shooting isn’t really backed up by any of his career statistics. Even worse is saying that it’s alright that he shoots threes cause hey, maybe he’ll got hot one day.
Lodwick has to shoot
that open corner is a key component to spreading D’s out. His shot will come back, I think Bone feels that too which is why he is still playing.
I'm a fan of Abe
But i just dont feel confident having him shooting the ball. Dont get me wrong, I’ll let him take the open 3, but I’d much rather have Klay or Fasial with the ball.
by mooreinthefuture on Dec 27, 2010 6:59 PM PST reply actions
This is my sentiment as well. Stated simply and to the point.
Abe is a key glue player that would be missed if he wasn’t scrapping and blue-collaring his way to fire up our D effort.
by Rex Parker Blaise on Dec 27, 2010 7:49 PM PST up reply actions
I get your point,
but we would all like Klay or Fasial taking the shot…but that is not the case. That is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about Lodwick taking the open shot, we are talking about his role in the offense. If a opposing team has any sense they are not going to leave Klay or Fasial open, that is why Lodwick open. I have more confidence in him this year compared to last. Remember a guy named Nik on our team last year, he shot it great from 3 pt range last year, but do you remember his 3 pt shooting the year before that? He couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn. Lets see how this plays out, we have 20+ games to go.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
SoCal, I agree heartily with six of your first seven sentences.
Come February, if Abe is still under, say, 30% on 3FGs….I’d short-leash his 3 opps. I’d be more comfortable with him taking one dribble, inviting the defender and passing onto to a better shooter. His job is in the trenches until he can prove different.
by Rex Parker Blaise on Dec 27, 2010 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
Yes for sure, but by then I would hope Bone would have a game plan
for this. He is smart enough coach that he will tweek his offense and make adjustments. Who knows, Motum could be taking more minutes by then.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
meh
Bone’s offense only has so much room for “the trenches.”
I’m having a hard time with your idea knowing a good scout would pick up on the fact that Abe’s not going to shoot the ball and adjusting as such.
Especially if he has streaky shooting nights.
That scares coaches. Rememeber how streaky Harmeling could be? Arizona was always worried about him.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
I would rather have Klay or Faisel shoot the ball?
Of course in an open look situation that would be preferable. But it is not even close to that simple. If I was a Laker fan I would want Kobe to take all the open shots.
If Lodwick does not take those 3’s we see what we saw last year. A hug fest on Klay Thompson. You guys who don’t like Lodwick might as well not even watch the game because he is very, very important in every set that the Cougs have.
He can shoot it will come. You have to understand that it is tough to play defense like a low post and then play offense like a shooting threat.
Why is this reply towards me?
I think this reply was meant for mooreinthefuture. Because you just confirmed what BigWood and I said above.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
sorry it was not meant for you
I replied off of moore in the future and it sent it way down.
I wish more of the Cougs
bodied up the way Abe tries. He may not come up with boats loads of rebounds but his man is frequently the only guy with a butt planted firmly between opponent and the ball. Abe boxes out. More of the Cougs needs to work on positioning themselves to keep their man off the glass. 100% agree the oofense needs Abe’s occasional bomb from the corner… he will keep that veiled double off Klay if he can just bury them once in while.
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
This is what it feels like discussing Abe Lodwick.
"Yaka Fest from outside for Klay Thompson" – Marques Johnson
by SoCalCoug on Dec 28, 2010 7:52 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Because someone had to replace Nik Korprivica.
by Jeff Nusser on Dec 28, 2010 8:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Listen, you guys started this thread, not us
As a rule, I don’t like to single players out by name at the collegiate level (unless they are getting paid.) And I wouldn’t have voiced my opinion if there weren’t a thread about Abe going. But there was, so I did. Shoot me.
We're just teasing.
If consternation over a guy who shoots the ball on one out of every 10 possessions he’s on the floor is our biggest problem, then things are going pretty well.
by Jeff Nusser on Dec 28, 2010 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
Very true.
However, the next target may be Simon if he doesn’t start raising his game here soon. 1-fer-Hawaii was not that impressive. And his release is looking pretty slow.
Uh, that's not the problem with Simon
His release is fast. And right now, it’s too fast. He needs to slow down a tick.
CougCenter, SBNation Seattle, @FloydCoug
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by Brian Floyd on Dec 28, 2010 11:58 PM PST up reply actions
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