Don't kid yourself: Losing Thames is a big deal (for now)
by Jeff Nusser on Mar 29, 2010 1:30 PM PDT
Email
PrintSo, the news came down in the last 48 hours that Xavier Thames, Anthony Brown and (almost certainly) Mike Harthun will all be leaving the basketball program for various reasons. And while it's not uncommon for this sort of thing to happen to a program when it suffers a coaching change and possesses so many young players, it still comes as a little bit of a shock to the system when a guy you don't expect -- and in fact are planning on playing an integral role moving forward -- leaves the program.
And while I've heard it played off that losing Thames isn't that big of a deal, I'm here to tell you that it is a big deal. At least for now.
Let's start with the obvious: He was our only competent, Pac-10 caliber backup point guard on the roster. This causes an immediate void in the rotation. Some have suggested that some combination of Marcus Capers/Faisal Aden/John Allen could hold down the fort, and while that might be true, that's hardly ideal.
Capers proved last year he's just not sure-handed enough to handle the ball regularly, and while there's a strong likelihood that will improve between now and the beginning of the season because he seems to be as hard a worker as anyone, I'm not holding my breath that he'll ever improve enough to make me comfortable with him bringing the ball up the floor and initiating the offense. Besides, this arrangement takes him away from what he does best on offense, which is move without the ball. Essentially, you're making two positions on the floor weaker when he's at the point.
As for Aden? Raise your hand if you've ever seen him play. We can deduce a few things by looking at his junior college stats: 22.9 points, 3.3 assists, 4.2 turnovers, 32.9 percent 3-point percentage. You know what all that says to me? Aden was the best guy on his team and had the ball in his hands all the time. I think the only thing we can truly learn from those numbers is that given that 3-point percentage, Aden can put the ball in the basket off the bounce (unless he's an exceptionally good midrange jumpshooter). As for reliably handling the ball? Who knows? Those turnovers don't look good, but again, he was likely dominating the ball against inferior competition. Is it possible he could be more sure handed if need be? It's possible. But we just don't know.
Of this trio, I actually think Allen possesses the most potential as a backup point guard. His story is an interesting one, and if not for some eligibility issues in high school, he likely would have been at a solid mid-major straight out of school. The interesting thing about having him on the floor this year was that he certainly wasn't a net negative when he was out there. He didn't turn the ball over -- in 43 minutes this year, he had just two -- and defended competently as near as I can tell. But while he's not your typical walk-on, the fact remains that he's still a Pac-10 walk-on, and he represents a clear step down in talent if he takes Thames' 10 minutes a game at the point.
Additionally, it's not like handling the ball was Thames' only skill. In fact, his total skill set is one that simply doesn't exist on the rest of the roster.
Offensively, he possessed a jumper that was effective from 15 feet on out to 3-point range, and only a seemingly uncharacteristic cold spell from beyond the arc dragged his effective field goal percentage down to where it finished (44.7). As it was, he only finished with a slightly below average offensive rating (95.3). That's not just excellent promise for a freshman -- that's actually pretty good production for a backup guard.
Defensively, I think you could make a pretty convincing argument that Thames was the team's best defender. He might not possess the spectacular on-ball play that Capers can flash from time to time, but you didn't have to look to hard to understand why Tony Bennett loved this guy. He's fairly long, fundamentally sound on the ball, and exceptional in terms of understanding the team defensive concept for a freshman. It's not a coincidence that the team often looked better down the stretch this season when he was on the floor.
And that's where this loss becomes impactful to me. I think there was a very real chance that with more offensive firepower in the backcourt that Thames actually saw his minutes increase and Reggie Moore's minutes decrease. Last season, Bone had to leave Moore on the floor because there just wasn't enough offensive production from the other positions. But with Aden and Simon coming in and with the strides you would expect everyone else to make between this year and next, I think there was a chance that if Moore didn't get significantly better defensively his minutes were going to decrease. I truly believe Thames was going to push Moore this season.
Unless there's a guy out there that Bone can bring in who can handle the ball competently and defend with some length on the perimeter, Thames' loss will be felt.
Of course, that's the caveat, and why I said "for now" earlier. Big Wood said in a comment that backup point guards grow on trees, and while that's obviously an exaggeration -- I'm pretty sure even he would tell you that -- the point is well taken that it's a lot easier to find a guy with Thames' skill set than finding a 6-10, 250-pound body to play next to DeAngelo Casto. That's not to say it's easy, but relatively speaking, it's not even in the same ballpark.
So, in that respect, I'll reserve judgment as to whether losing Thames ends up becoming a big problem. If there's anything we learned from Ken Bone picking up Moore and Steven Bjornstad last year, the guy is not going to be caught off guard. There's no doubt in my mind that he's been actively recruiting guys for months, and that he's got some guys on his radar. And it would be worth remembering that those guys might not be on Cougfan.com's radar, just as Moore and Aden weren't.
As for the losses of Brown and Harthun? I think if we had taken a poll at the end of the year as to who we all would guess were leaving, those two would have been at the top of the list. Brown looked like he never was going to amount to much more than an end-of-the-bench guy, although it's awful tough to say having never really seen him in a game. But we can deduce that Bone never really envisioned him as more than that, either, given that they blew his redshirt for less that 10 total minutes this season.
Harthun, on the other hand? After watching him fail to bring much of anything positive to the table for two years, it was fairly certain he never was going to be the guy we all hoped when he signed two years ago. A lot of people forget that he was the original jewel of that class, not Klay Thompson. But his shooting never lived up to the reputation, and it was painfully clear that he lacked the footspeed to play Bone's style. He also appeared to suffer from confidence issues, which is never good for a guy whose main value stemmed from his shooting.
I always held out hope that Harthun could become a useful player -- and by "useful" I mean like 10-15 minutes a night, come in and bang a couple of 3s. However, my sense has always been that Harthun fancied himself more than a "useful" part-time player, so his leaving makes sense, and I don't find it any great loss. If, in two years, a guy doesn't show you much of anything to convince you he's a Pac-10 level player, he's probably not.
I wish all these guys the best of luck. But like I said, unless we pick up another guy similar to Thames, I think there's no choice but to consider his leaving a net loss for the team this upcoming season.
57 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
of course it was an exaggeration
Losing Thames sucks. I’ll be the first to admit that.
But in the grand scheme of things, EVERY major school has a backup (i’m using it for lack of a better word, wsufootballblog!) point guard that thinks they can get 30 minutes elsewhere. We just tend to be the school that freaks out about it.
There are plenty of unsigned guards out there that can come in and spell Reggie for 10 minutes. For Bone to get the RIGHT one is the tricky part, but let’s be honest: it’s not like we just lost Casto, which WOULD be a deathblow to next year.
I think it is too early to tell
Players come and go for various reasons including graduation, injury and looking for more playing time. I think it is easy to surmise that Harthun and Brown were politely shown the door.
Thames is a loss, no question about that. He was one of two scholarship PG’s on the team. It it interesting that if Tony had stayed, Thames would have been the only scholarship PG on the team last year. So, Tony for whatever reason did not have a problem with that.
I am not as down as JN on Capers as the back up PG. Is he the ideal backup, no. Can he do it competently, I think he can. It does take away from what he does best, but I think if he is not the backup PG, sitting on the bench behind Aden takes away from what he does best as well. No, I have never seen Aden play, but I do think he will start over Capers. So, I think having Capers play backup PG gets him minutes he would not otherwise have.
I also think there is a possibility that he picks up a backup PG recruit or that he thinks the backup PG committee is good enough and each will play depending on the match-up. In other-words, there will not be a player that will automatically get the minutes.
I am a big Seattle Sounders fan. Last year the Sounders had the number one pick and used it on Steve Zakuani, wide midfielder from Akron. He started, but was always taken out around the 60th (of 90) minute mark because he was not mentally or physical ready to play an entire match. This happens with some young players. I write this because I think that is what occurred with Moore. He hit a wall and both his offense and defense suffered. For someone whose defense was not his strong-suit anyway, it made him look worse than he actually is. I think next year, we will see a better all around Moore.
Tony actually did have a problem with Thames as the only PG
Which is why he was bringing in Cully Payne in the late signing period. He won the PG job at Iowa and I watched enough Big 10 basketball to see that X would have had a hard time beating Payne out, too. Prototypical Bennett PG who’s already very polished and did a great job as a true frosh against much tougher competition than he would have faced in the Pac 10.
Cully Payne
I couldn’t remember the late player Bennett was going after. Thanks!
The problem that I have with Capers at PG is it really negates all his strengths
He’s not a great passer, doesn’t take care of the ball particularly well, and doesn’t have a consistent shot. What he can do, however, is rebound and slash. We all saw he was good for at least one tip-dunk a game and a few highlight dunks on baseline drives/cuts. You throw him at the point and he may be serviceable for spurts, but you also take away his strengths on the offensive end.
indeed
i was hesitant to even say it.
I would be too
I’m not sure I want him playing 35 for obvious reasons. None of this matters if Bone pulls a guard out of a hat in the late period, too. A lot of ifs still floating out there.
Where is Ken Bone?
Anyone know if he is actually gonna comment on the goings on? Speculation is fun and all but it sure would be nice to hear from the lions mouth! KJR or the Spokeman Review need to get him on the phone.
He can't comment on it right now
It’s not fair to the team and not fair to the players. Especially since they have yet to even ask for a release.
Are we THAT thin at guard?
Let’s just pretend for a second that Bone doesn’t go out and get anybody else. This is our roster for next season.
Let’s also assume that Motum and Bjorn both gain 20 lbs, and that both Aden and Simon are both ready to contribute next year.
PG – Reggie/Zero
SG – Klay/Aden
SF – Klay/Simon/Zero
PF – Motum/Simon/Abe
C – Casto/Charlieball/Bjorn
That’s not exactly a return to Grahamball
At this point, if nothing changes, you can also add Allen to PG
It’s not ideal at guard but also nowhere near catastrophic. Having Thames as a PG/SG would’ve been ideal, but them be the breaks.
Who is this Zero kid? Able to play the 1 and 3. He sounds awesome!!
by ptowncoug3012 on Mar 29, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Very Thin-7 to 4 front court to backcourt
Allen is a good walk-on but not a scholarship player in my mind, He may get a scholy for this year if we elect to hold it until 2011.
We now have only 4 scholarship players that play the 1-3 positions and 7 that play the 4-5. Simon is too slow to play the 3 in Bone’s style.
If we had another post as some suggest we should it would be 8 to 4.
We have to add a guard. It makes the loss of Thames even worse. NO way we find a bettter player then Thames was going to be as a sophomore. So in a year where my expectations were NCAA Tourny it looks like that is down the drain.
"Simon is too slow to play the 3 in Bone’s style"
not sure i agree with that.
Thames is a solid player, but come on….he wasn’t the lynchpin for whether or not we make the tournament next year. The sky isn’t falling.
I don't agree with the too slow part
He’s fine and good enough to play the three I think.
I also don’t like to place emphasis on strict “1-2-3-4-5” numbering for positions. They’re all fairly interchangeable in the offense, except for Casto who doesn’t have a skill set for anything except the 5 right now. Other than that, guys slide in at different positions all the time and most people won’t notice if Klay is a 2 or 3 on different trips down the floor.
I want that man running the point
Why? Because I just found the video of the Baynes coast to coast and want to see Bjorn pull it off.
Grippi on KJR
Brown didn’t fit, but was a Dick Bennett recruit and Dick thought he was perfect for that system.
X, in Grippi’s eyes, didn’t fit Bone’s system. He was more defensive oriented and more comfortable in the slower half-court game and not the up-tempo full court game. This seems to make sense in that sense.
Harthun is a high IQ player, but lacked foot speed to play in Bone’s system.
Hard for me to disagree
Thames did a solid job last year but I wonder if he was a fit for what they ultimately wanted to do. I thought of him for lack of a better comparison as somewhat like a Dentmon for the UW. A player that could potentially become a starter at the 2 and backup at the point. Not the best comparison but at this point I didn’t see Thames as someone that could really push tempo.
I will definitely miss Thames though and would have liked him to remain in Pullman. Bone hasn’t stopped recruiting so hopefully there are a couple of players they are close with.
So what can we take away from this
These losses look bad but at the end we are moving towards Bone having a chance to recruit players for his system.
What I like about that is it is moving the program down the road. Losing any players hurts, and as Cougs I hate to see players not fit or not fall in love with the University the way that I did. But that happens and is a part of basketball, so no hard feelings and good luck to all those that leave.
More importantly, hopefully the timetable for Bone to run out a team that fits his style moves up a little bit. And that is great, because the big question is can Bone get the players into Pullman to run his style. I’m firmly in the camp that he can, and given time we can win with an uptempo style of play. I do not believe that we are limited by being our location or other factors to the full underdog/slow/defensive style of the Dick and Tony B.
That's sort of what I was trying to say
This is probably not good for this year. But in the long term, I reserve judgment.
This situation seems like a simple "didn't click" scenario
Defensively, I think you could make a pretty convincing argument that Thames was the team’s best defender.
I just can’t get behind that idea. Thames is a very fluid, long, and seemingly high IQ player. Those traits help him be a good defender (and certainly much better than Reggie), but at some point pure athleticism and instincts overwhelm long arms. In fact, both Casto and Capers have both a long frame and freak athleticism.
Those two (Casto and Capers) were the anchors of our defense last year and they will remain the defensive anchors next year. It’s also worth noting that Klay showed spurts of being a very, very good defender as well (unfortunately at the sacrifice of offensive output at times)
Don’t get me wrong. Thames was a solid defender and a good all-around player (and really seemed like a likable guy), but from my perspective he lacked the speed or exceptionally high ability in one or two specific things to excel in Bone’s system. He would’ve been a great player in Bennett’s system where all-around players can thrive (see: Kyle Weaver), but perhaps he just didn’t fit with Bone’s philosophy as well as he wished.
By all accounts, Thames seems (as far as I can tell) to genuinely enjoy his teammates and feel that Bone gave him a fair opportunity. This situation screams to me as one of those times when a player and coach (or coaching style) shared no bad blood, but just didn’t click. At least that’s what I hope it is.
I should've added this in to the Grippi part
Thames probably was the second best defender (at least perimeter) on the team. The way Grippi said it on KJR, when Capers would come out, Thames would man up on the guy Capers had.
It seemed like from everything I’ve heard today that it just didn’t work out and the style of play Thames wanted wasn’t the same as the system Bone runs.
Sorry, I meant to say "best perimeter defender"
Capers can be dominant, but he also gets beat fairly regularly by not moving his feet — hence the recovery blocks he also comes up with. And I think you’re right in that Thames probably doesn’t fit Bone’s idea profile. He needs faster guards. Thames will never burn anyone up pushing the ball down the floor, that’s for sure.
by Jeff Nusser on Mar 29, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with Nusser. Wow!
The guy was avg 17.5 minutes as a backup and his quotes in the newspaper was that he wasn’t leaving because he was a backup.
Something weird went down. I believe Bone sent him packing, not in a way that hey this isn’t working out because you aren’t going to see the floor (because he was seeing the floor), but something akin to we think we can get a more talented guy to fill the role. I know I am speculating, but X seems pissed and I think rightfully so.
I also have to disagree with BigWood. Experience is everything. Here we had a guy who played a year in Bone’s system with significant minutes. Now we are looking for a back up PG who may take a year to fit in. Fantastic, that’s all we need is more guys adjusting to Bone’s system.
I don’t think JA’s the answer, and I don’t think Bone thinks that either or JA would have been seeing the floor significantly more than 43 minutes!
All I can say is wow. Coaches get pissed when we as fans second guess them, but for crying out aloud they make themselves easy targets when a solid contributor (who is going to improve greatly from this year to next) is sent packing.
Take the tinfoil hat off
Nothing funky went down and Bone didn’t send him packing as far as I’ve been able to tell. Listen to Grippi on Furness’ show. He says from talking to Thames, he got the impression the type of game Thames wanted to play was more like what Bennett runs and less like Bone (slower, halfcourt based not uptempo with more runouts).
Have to agree
Based upon everything that’s been printed, to say the X was pissed is pure conjecture. This is a prime example of where fans get weird. As Dragnet used to say back in the day, “Just the facts.”
Whaddya mean?
Quote from Stalwick’s article: "Asked if Moore’s presence had anything to do with his decision, Thames said, “Not even, no.” But he declined to comment on his reasons for leaving, other than saying, “The school, the people, everybody here at Washington State was really good.”"
Bone basically told him he sucks and sent him packing. When I mean “funky” it’s not your standard case, like Brown for example. Brown clearly wasn’t in the coaches mind cut out for their system. THames clearly displayed great ability, played significant minutes and apparently wanted to keep playing for Wazzu, yet the coaches sent him packing. That’s funky in my opinion.
Sorry that was supposed to be a reply. I will not post again for at least 10 minutes
as a penalty.
by ptowncoug3012 on Mar 29, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
You took that from his quote?
From everything I gathered and looking at the big picture I can’t say that Bone ran him. Bone played him a lot down the stretch (20+ a game) and Thames was taking on a bigger role. Thames was recruited to play defense and run a slow-down offense. That isn’t what the system is anymore and I don’t think he wants to play in a system that is completely the opposite of what he was originally recruited into by Bennett. I would put this decision on Thames and Thames alone. He was not the kind of player to be nudged out.
Yup, I think you're WAY off base on this one
There is absolutely no evidence to support your assertion that the coaches “sent him packing.” You need to make sure you can back up what you say with some kind of link. Otherwise, keep your interpretations to yourself.
by Jeff Nusser on Mar 29, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Obviously, it wasn't my intention to state a fact rather than issue
an opinion (interpretation) that went down. My point is that Thames is clearly unhappy about having to leave. Sorry if I am speculating, but everyone single person on this forum is doing exactly that.
For example, 02coug is speculating why Thames would want to leave. I don’t think that is wrong. cougfan guy above is speculating that Thames doesn’t want to play in an uptempo system and states that this is on Thames. Where is the link on that?!!!
Essentially the evidence that is out is that Thames is unhappy and is not leaving because of playing backup to Moore.
If you want to ban me for issuing an unpopular speculation, please do. You can’t have it both ways though. Either you like my speculation or you don’t, but don’t ask me to keep my interpretation to myself and allow everyone else to offer theirs without some “link”.
I am not pissed, but come on. We should be able to speculate all we want. If you want to defend Bone, fine.
by ptowncoug3012 on Mar 30, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
And I think there's absolutely nothing to suggest that he's "clearly unhappy"
You can interpret it as you wish, but nothing he has said has pointed to him being shown the door, nor has anything from the coach said that. That’s why what you are saying is inappropriate.
I took what I said from Grippi's interview on KJR
He has quite a bit more insight into the team than most of us.
And here's the link if you're skeptical of Grippi
Furness’ page. You can download the podcast under Grippi’s name and listen to his segment.
Your reading into it a lot to get to "the coaches sent him packing"
First I would ask why? Why would the coaches send him packing? If at some point in the year the coaches decided he didn’t fit, than the logical course of action is to figure out who on the roster can fill the minutes and reduce time for Thames. But his time increased at the end of the year.
There can be a lot of reasons why he might leave but still look favorably on the University and the team. Wanting to be closer to home, wanting to play a different style, or something similar to that seems much more likely than Bone telling him to leave.
four years as a 2nd stringer
had to look bleak to Thames. Not sure what happened, but I can understand his wanting more minutes. There are guys out there who can play point- my guess is Bone is already on it. I wouldn’t be surprised if that big who has a verbal w/ P. State is now considering WSU. All TOTAL speculation… by me- not meant as anything but- however slots open for PAC 10 play are enticing to kids on that mid major bubble in recruiting. Might be able to lure a 3 star big into town…
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
Defensively, I think you could make a pretty convincing argument that Thames was the team’s best defender. He might not possess the spectacular on-ball play that Capers can flash from time to time, but you didn’t have to look to hard to understand why Tony Bennett loved this guy. He’s fairly long, fundamentally sound on the ball, and exceptional in terms of understanding the team defensive concept for a freshman. It’s not a coincidence that the team often looked better down the stretch this season when he was on the floor.
And that’s where this loss becomes impactful to me. I think there was a very real chance that with more offensive firepower in the backcourt that Thames actually saw his minutes increase and Reggie Moore’s minutes decrease. Last season, Bone had to leave Moore on the floor because there just wasn’t enough offensive production from the other positions. But with Aden and Simon coming in and with the strides you would expect everyone else to make between this year and next, I think there was a chance that if Moore didn’t get significantly better defensively his minutes were going to decrease. I truly believe Thames was going to push Moore this season.
I agree with both of these assessments, and would add one additional thing. I think Thames, more than any other player added physical and mental toughness to the defense. Casto brought some when he was feeling it, but Thames was actually fairly stocky for being a freshman guard, and didn’t seem to back down from anyone. He was a safety in football at the HS level, IIRC, and I think he brought a little of that attitude with him to the court. That will be missed.
In the long run, we can certainly find someone to replace him, and work effectively as a 6th man back-up 1/2 gaurd, but this does indeed hurt for next year’s team.
I would also add on the offensive end...
that Reggie could have used some time at the 2 to give Thames some more minutes. He’s a natural 1, but Reggie has some scoring ability that would have allowed both to be on the floor together along with either Klay or Aiden to keep a couple scoring threats on the floor.
by TiltingRight on Mar 29, 2010 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions
What I really wanna know is...
Is Charlie Enquist still receiving a scholarship?
Short answer, "yes."
I’ve seen numerous posts from folks close to the program saying Charlie’s got a full ride the rest of his college BBall career. If it wasn’t guaranteed after last year, he would have transferred.
by TiltingRight on Mar 30, 2010 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions
I think we have bigger problems to worry about...
LIKE LEARNING HOW TO SHOOT FREE THROWS.
Think about how many close games we lost this year. If we had taken advantage of free throw opportunities in those games we would have had a much different record at the end of the season. I like Bone and the direction he’s taking this program, but he needs to pick up where Bennett took off (pun) in the free throw area.
Are those things mutually exclusive?
We can’t keep a key player AND work of free throws?
by TiltingRight on Mar 30, 2010 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions
The school can't afford Thames's scholly and a FT coach.
These are rough times, man.
CougCenter WSU's second main blog
by Craig Powers on Mar 30, 2010 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions
We should probably go out and sign a free throw specialist with that open scholly
You know, for end of game situations. It’s like having that closer in there
Please tell me you are joking.
CougCenter WSU's second main blog
by Craig Powers on Mar 30, 2010 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't let one game color your "analysis"
This team shot 70.5 percent from the free throw line this year, good for 122nd nationally. That’s not world beating, but it’s not terrible, either. And if memory serves, that figure dropped as the year wore on, suggesting nothing more than tired legs.
by Jeff Nusser on Mar 30, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Community Guidelines
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
