WSU Vs. Gonzaga: Cougs' Late Rally Falls Short, Zags Win 89-81
by Craig Powers on Nov 15, 2011 12:17 AM PST
in 2011-2012 WSU Basketball News
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PrintGonzaga jumped on Washington State early with a flurry of three-pointers from freshman Kevin Pangos and it proved to be just enough down the stretch as the Bulldogs nearly blew a twenty-point lead.
Washington State was able to close within three points on two occasions in the final minute, but the only time they were within three and had the ball was their very first possession of the game. While the three-point shooting of Gonzaga was killer in the first half, free throws allowed them to hang onto the lead in the second half.
In the end, both teams had offensive efficiencies over 130 for the game and both teams had eFG% over 50. Defense was optional.
A few bullet points to chew on before I go get some much-needed sleep:
- The seniors on this team are more of the same. Faisal Aden had a nice stretch on offense early in the game, but was pulled in the second half after taking bad shots and playing his usual brand of defense. Marcus Capers still provides very little on the offensive end, and was made to look bad a few times by Pangos this evening.
- DaVonte Lacy had a rough start to his Cougar career in the first half, drawing two fouls very quickly. However, in the second half he played a key role in bringing the Cougs back, knocking down huge shots and making some very nifty moves in the open floor. Very hard not to get excited about this kid.
- Mychal Ladd still has a ways to go on the defensive end, but he can fill it up in a hurry on offense. The combination of Ladd and Lacy gave the Cougars a spark in the final ten minutes.
- Reggie Moore definitely looked limited. Sure, he was getting by his defender and getting in the paint, but he wasn't able to do much when got there. His play in the final ten minutes was huge in the comeback, but we still don't have that Reggie that gets all way to the rim. It would have been nice to see him finish some of his drives and get Robert Sacre out of the game. I will say he played a very tough game, and the Cougs wouldn't have been in it without him. Maybe he can take a break against Sacramento State and let that groin heal a little bit. Moore had 14 points on about 15 possessions used. Four turnovers were killer.
- Brock Motum was all the Cougs had on the offensive end at times. He dunked! Who knew he could dunk? He even fooled Doris, who thought he was "athletic." He also pulled down six defensive rebounds, which may match his entire career output thus far. Like Moore, he had four turnovers that limited his efficiency, as did his poor foul shooting. Thus, in a game where offense was everywhere, he finished just under one point per possession used.
- While I'm talking about efficiency, Ladd and Lacy combined for 24 points on 19 possessions used, most of which came in the late run. Compare that to the starter Aden, who used 15 possessions to score 12 points playing a very similar role.
- Charlie Enquist had four points. In the Powers household, we call those bonus points.
- DJ Shelton played with energy, but looks raw. Had a lot of trouble finishing around the basket.
- Will DiIorio was playing the four at the end. His fouls hurt a lot, but there probably wasn't much more he could do against Sacre. He was very close to making a huge impact, but missed two putbacks in crucial moments.
In the end, it's hard not be a little optimistic about that game. WSU fought hard at the end when they very well could have packed it in down 20. Ken Bone changed up the lineup and it worked very well. The trapping style defense also created some turnovers and bad shots out of Gonzaga. The problem is that is a very difficult defense to keep up for a full forty minutes without supreme depth, and that is why they used it sparingly.
It's crazy to think what might have been if Gonzaga didn't go bananas from three at the beginning, but WSU was leaving the shooters open. Pangos will probably never go 9-13 from three again in his life, but each and every shot he hit was with feet set and a clear look at the basket. That is asking for trouble.
Let's hope that WSU gets that defense figured out before conference play comes around, or it could be a very long season. It is encouraging to know that there are some scorers on the team that may allow them to win a shootout here and there. All I know is that I want to see more of Lacy and Ladd and less of Aden going forward. Aden has had his chance to prove himself, and all he has shown is that he not an efficient player and is unwilling to play in the offense and just take the good shots. Lacy and Ladd were taking open looks, and their numbers tell the story.
The good news is that this will probably be the best team WSU faces until conference play comes around. Playing the likes of Sacramento State and Western Oregon will give the coach the chance to play with the lineups and find what works.
I'm officially at rambling on status now. Time to wrap this up. How do you guys feel after that game?
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Overall, I'm not happy but proud of the players tonight
Brock really impressed me with his footwork around the rim and the way he used his body to get his shot off. I really wish Lacey could’ve played more, and liked how aggressive and smooth he looked on the offensive side of the ball. But, I got really annoyed by Aden tonight, someone should tell him he’s not Klay Thompson and can’t take any shot that he wants to whenever he wants.
by crimson coug on Nov 15, 2011 12:28 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Motum was in the dunk contest at Midnight Madness his freshman year.
He’s much bouncier than you would think by looking at him.
He may have lost a little.
But you don’t make that dunk without being pretty athletic. I think he’s just a finesse player, and he’s going to lay it up, and try and avoid contact more often than not. That’s just his style.
Little reason not to be optimistic
This was a much better team than I expected this year. It was a good game, and played with effort. I’d take Doris to heart on Motum more than you. If he’s confident he has a nice inside move.
Aden looks exactly the same as last year. Moore still iffy. Lots of raw talent that will be better even next week, let alone at the start of conference play.
Great team chemistry with a promise for greatness if the talent matures and doesn’t get tentative.
just cruisin down stadium way
We have a great coach.
They will be a dream team (not like the sad Olympic team of 2004).
by well you win some and lose others on Nov 15, 2011 12:42 AM PST up reply actions
What does confidence and an inside move have to do with athleticism?
CougCenter In Reid We Trust, Twitter!
by Craig Powers on Nov 15, 2011 12:46 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Seems like a prequisite to me
Confidence + Athleticism = inside move
just cruisin down stadium way
by DarrowStreet on Nov 15, 2011 12:52 AM PST up reply actions
"Prerequisite"
And it’s only hour 5
just cruisin down stadium way
by DarrowStreet on Nov 15, 2011 12:53 AM PST up reply actions
And really, it is not that Brock isn't athletic at all.
He is for a normal person, but average for a Pac-12 basketball player. Also, I used exclamation points and what not in that sentence, so I was really just trying to be funny. Crashed and burned in that regard.
CougCenter In Reid We Trust, Twitter!
by Craig Powers on Nov 15, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
It depends on what your definition of is is
just cruisin down stadium way
by DarrowStreet on Nov 15, 2011 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
So then ... what's your definition?
Because mine is the typical runs fast/jumps high/jumps quickly definition.
Well...
When you say there are guys with excellent inside moves and not much athleticism, I don’t get it. If a big man gets the ball and is well defended, then makes a decisive and successful play to the basket, that guy has to be athletic. A good inside move takes the right combination of power, ball control, footwork, and timing.
just cruisin down stadium way
by DarrowStreet on Nov 16, 2011 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
I see what you're saying
I just don’t think that’s the definition of “athleticism” as it’s typically used. I don’t think anyone is saying Motum isn’t athletic compared to most athletes; of course he is, as you must be to be able to play at the Pac-12 level. But he’s not “athletic” compared to the top, say 10 percent of his Pac-12 basketball peers, if that makes sense.
When I think athletic big man, I think Richard Solomon, Reeves Nelson, the Wear twins, Matthew Bryan-Amaning, etc. I don’t think Joshua Smith (who I love, by the way), even though he fits your definition.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 16, 2011 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
I guess that's the difference between us...
I just think of Reeves Nelson as a major league d-bag.
just cruisin down stadium way
by DarrowStreet on Nov 16, 2011 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
Not sure what that has to do with this particular conversation
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 16, 2011 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
I guess this whole page is a humor fail.
just cruisin down stadium way
by DarrowStreet on Nov 16, 2011 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
To interject myself
I think Motum is athletic and has athletic moves in his repertoire, but lacking confidence, or body mass for that matter, have limited his willingness or ability to demonstrate it.
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
A lot to build on
First game without Thompson and Casto and they looked it in the first half.
Lacy can play and has a bright future if he continues to grow. He might not have Bell, Jr’s overall talent but Lacy played bigger down the stretch. Lacy plays without fear.
I am already thinking of life without Aden next year and with Woolridge and Johsnon in the mix with hopefully a healthy Moore and a 2nd-year Lacy. Also though Ladd was solid.
Still looking forward to watching this team grow. This was a tough game 1 of the season but at least the team showed some toughness and didn’t quit. I just wish WSU had another big to go along with Motum.
A tip of the hat to Pangos and GU tonight.
Lacy and Moore
Should be a good combo down the stretch. Anyone know how much Reggie has slimmed down? Looks to be in better shape and I have a feeling a return to his freshman self is on it’s way once he’s 100%.
Let’s just hope driving and dishing to Motum is as effective as it was at times to Casto when drawing the extra defender.
Why didn't Jeff TELL us Lacy could play last year?!
Sheesh, Jeff. You could have prepared us when you were watching him….
Of course I was being sarcastic.
It was your comments last winter that made me eager to see him in action last night. Seems like he’s the sort of guy who can be a streaky shooter, but he can also create his own shot when he needs to. He was huge down the stretch. I’m looking forward to watching him develop.
I figured that
Just didn’t want others to fall in.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2011 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
Hard to be too disappointed in a 9 point loss at The Kennel.
Especially when it was a 3 point game before all of the fouling. Lacy looked good, but I’m worried a little bit too since I remember thinking at the start of last year that Aden couldn’t miss. That last 3 pointer of his was heartbreaking. DiIorio fouled out in only 6 minutes, but oddly I’m OK with it. I feel our options were either have him fight Sacre and put him on the line or have Charlie just get run over.
"Tonight, we skate with them. Tonight, we stay with them. And we shut them down because we can!" | Herb Brooks
And I can't do math apparently.
8 point loss.
"Tonight, we skate with them. Tonight, we stay with them. And we shut them down because we can!" | Herb Brooks
Personally, I felt Casto's absence way more than Klay's.
It seems that we have the talent to share Klay’s missed pointed, but we have nothing inside. I know Sacre is a beast and may be one of the best bigs we face this season, but it was not hopeful.
Besides that, I have to agree with your “little reason not to be optimistic” comment. When we were down by 20 pts I was was thinking, “Yea, this is about right.” My expectations have not been high, but I was actually impressed with our play against a very good Zags team. I still have no idea how we were only down by 9 at half after it started raining 3s.
by P_Cougar on Nov 15, 2011 8:00 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I don't think this game is a huge indicator of things to come, but here a few thing I took from the game.
-It was definitely different to watch compared to last year.
-I like that Ladd has some fire, which we need.
-Lacy also has fire in him.
-Without that outward, competitive, fire I would be afraid that this team looks like it is just going through the motions.
-I like what Bone did, he does a good job of coaching with the tools that he has. He gave Aden plenty of opportunities to play within his system, but realized at the right time he needed to take him out.
-Motum had a good night.
-Reggie still looks injured.
-I always think Enquist is going to be just horrible, but he always seems to play solid. By solid, I mean he doesn’t stick out, there isn’t anything glaring to his game, positive or negative. For a walk-on that is a good thing. But we need something more from this position. Lodwick isn’t world-class, but he is a glue guy and can hit the outside shot. We missed him last night.
-People knocked Shelton, but I like what I saw. He drove from the top of the key and got blocked, but I was really surprised by his quickness to the hole and his ball handling for a 6’10" guy. He got there quick, but should have used a different move to finish. He will learn to adjust to the level of quickness. In JC ball he gets away with that, here he will learn to stop let the defender fly by and then put the ball in. He has three years to play. I think he turns into a solid contributor. I think Bone is still a little nervous to leave him into long.
-As far as Gonzaga. I don’t know why people think Sacre is so good. He always beats people by getting to the FT line. He only took two FGs, but was 13-13 from the FT line. Don’t put him on the FT line and I don’t think he beats you. He has a limited offensive game. His offensive game is using his big body to get fouled, that’s about it.
-Surprising we out-shot GU. Our FT percentage wasn’t great, but we only shot 21 FTs compared to GU’s 37. I don’t think we will shoot a lot of FTs this season, so I am not to worried about that number. Although, I am worried about giving the opposition 37 FTs. They made 16 more FTs than we did and we lost by 8. Interesting.
WSU FG-47.5% 3ptFG-45.0% FT-66.7%
GU FG-41.1% 3ptFG-44.8% FT-81.1%
I love it when CougCenter goes green, because it usually means we are winning.
I think it will be a frustrating season to watch, but at the same time a fun season. If that makes sense.
I love it when CougCenter goes green, because it usually means we are winning.
That's how I'm thinking.
This team is brutally flawed by the lack of true post players, but the perimeter play of Moore/Ladd/Lacy and the Euro-esque stylings of Motum will make the team watchable.
by Coug Friendly Canuck on Nov 15, 2011 6:48 PM PST up reply actions
I was at the game
Most of the assessments from everyone are pretty accurate.
I personally was impressed with Motum’s effort and movement, his dunk sent everyone into a sort of Conner Halliday “where did that come from” look. But his effort on offense and defense was pretty solid, more than I expected. He had some crafty plays, and drew some good fouls against GU’s bigs.
Enquist might actually give us some good, tough minutes. He’s often over-matched, but he hustles.
Aiden didn’t just get yanked because of his shooting; he got pulled immediately after carelessly dribbling up the court without any awareness that a GU player was about to come from behind and knock the ball away. He did this twice, and both times could have passed, but kept dribbling without any urgency. Bone got real frustrated and turned right to the bench.
Shelton is very raw, but if he can be coached up this year it should be a real benefit on the boards. Needs to add weight.
Ladd and Lacy will be fun to watch this year. It took them a half to get their feet under them and settle down, but when they did they were studs.
Overall, I sensed some real good chemistry, and starting the season on the road in a tough environment was a huge test. They way the hung in there was really impressive.
You also wouldn’t believe how loud the Kennel is in person. Lot’s of Coug fans filtered throughout…. fun atmosphere.
Finally, before we go too crazy on the Cougar D, GU had terrific ball movement, which allowed some of the open looks. But yes, I thought Capers would do more with his long arms to get in their faces…but it was obvious the defense was more worried about low post coverage in the beginning.
Good point on Aden's dribbling into crowds.
I commented on that in the game thread but somehow forgot when I typed this up.
CougCenter In Reid We Trust, Twitter!
by Craig Powers on Nov 15, 2011 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
Brock
I didn’t like that we didn’t keep going to Brock after Sacre picked up his fourth foul. The next possession Motum missed a gimme because Sacre was scared to touch him and that seemed like it for him. We could’ve gotten a couple of really good looks, or at least potentially drew a foul on him.
At the risk of being the only harsh critic
given that GU is a solid team with good balance, but am I the only one that is very concerned with our defensive effort? I didn’t watch every minute of the game but I did see most of it and what I saw looked a lot like last year with a LOT of wide open looks for GU and the Cougs scrambling around trying to cover the floor and not being very successful at it.
Junkyard dog defense was the essential ingredient in the highly competitive and (eventually) hyper-successful Bennett era and it has been all but discarded by coach Bone, replaced by a focus on up-tempo offense and an attempt to out-run-and-gun the opposition rather than out-defense them.
Given that Klay Thompson was a fluke and that it’s extremely difficult to land star quality offensive guns it seems to me that our lack of focus on the defensive end is going to lead to middle of the pack or worse results. Looking long-term at our mediocre hoops history it seems to me that coach Bone is repeating the flawed strategies of many of his predecessors with his up-tempo run it up and down the floor and try to out score the oppositions shooters and I just don’t see that being a successful approach in Pullman.
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
The D sucked until the run at the end.
To be fair to Bone he’s got himself a conundrum. The only way this team can be effective defensively is with the active aggressive trapping style, but they do not have the bodies to do that for 40 minutes.
by Coug Friendly Canuck on Nov 15, 2011 7:15 PM PST up reply actions
define uptempo
i’m sure these guys have the numbers laying around but it isn’t like we are flying up and down the court…really ever.
and last year we were in some categories one of the top defense teams in the conference.
we have to give somewhere and we choose to let them shoot lolly pops and hope the bigs didn’t beat us.
we were down 3 with the ball with 40 seconds left in our first game of the year on the road in a hostile gym to a ranked team (even though I don’t think they are close to top 25). let’s just see how the season goes.
WSU was 46th in the country in adjusted defensive efficiency last season.
It is a myth that Bone has “discarded” defense.
CougCenter In Reid We Trust, Twitter!
by Craig Powers on Nov 15, 2011 8:10 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
I wish I could rec this eleventy billion times.
Alas, I only get one.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2011 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
To expand
No, the defense isn’t as good as under Bennett. But if anyone is going to continue to compare them at this point, they’re going to be perpetually disappointed. It’s never going to be that again. But just because it’s not that doesn’t automatically make it terrible. Case in point: WSU allowed 1.00 points per possession in conference last year, but 1.03 in Bennett’s last year. Better offensive teams in the Pac-10 in 2009? Undoubtedly. But let’s have a little more than wistful memories to support our conclusions.
Last night wasn’t good. I definitely miss how hard Bennett’s players used to work to do something simple like fight through a screen (or two … or three) to stay with their man. It is definitely frustrating at times. But let’s not pretend these guys haven’t played any defense under Bone. It’s just not true.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2011 11:41 PM PST up reply actions
It seems like we often get lit up by one player
I think that has a lot to do with this (incorrect) perception that Bone’s teams aren’t particularly solid on defense. Looking back we probably haven’t been lit up that often but the Pangos/Crabbe/whatever that Arizona State walk on’s name was, etc games are difficult to forget and skews thinking a bit.
Of course, maybe this just comes from the idea that teams score 70 on us now instead of 50 so it must be bad defense. Regardless of the perception, I do agree that we didn’t play particularly well on defense against the Zags yesterday for most of the game.
Streamin' and Threadin' and Shellin
It's funny how people forget how often we used to get lit up from 3 by some random player under the Bennetts
In Tony Bennett’s final year, teams shot 35.8 percent from three-point range against WSU, 262nd nationally. It was 31.2 last year.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 15, 2011 11:46 PM PST up reply actions
Be interested in what the total shooting percentage was against Bennett teams
I might be wrong but it sure seems like Bennett’s boys were in every single players face for a solid 40 minutes. No let ups in intensity which seems to routinely happen now.
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 15, 2011 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
Of course there are letups in intensity on defense under Bone
Just like there were letups in intensity on offense under Bennett. It’s impossible to play that hard at both ends of the floor unless you’re rotating nine guys in and out regularly (a la North Carolina, Kansas, Michigan State).
But since you asked, here are the eFG percentages allowed under Ken Bone and Tony Bennett:
Bone 2011: 46.1
Bone 2010: 51.2
Bennett 2009: 44.6
Bennett 2008: 46.7
Bennett 2008: 46.2
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 16, 2011 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
Pretending that "Bennett's boys" had zero let ups in "intensity" is romantacizing the past and is patently false
much like saying “intensity” is let up “routinely” now.
/quoting “intensity” because I have no clue what it means.
OK - so sue me, I'm a romantic <:]
Let me rephrase: the Cougs seemed to have fewer defensive let-ups than teams before or since the Bennett era and having a narrower margin of defeat shows we are playing more competitively than if the margin is wider.
And margin of victory/defeat is what I’m talking about. If the Cougs can’t blow the competition out I want the games to be hard fought and interesting right up to the end, and playing killer D helps make that happen.
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 16, 2011 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
"having a narrower margin of defeat shows we are playing more competitively than if the margin is wider"
False. Having a narrower margin of defeat shows that the tempo was slower.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 16, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
I almost brought that up too, but I couldn't think of any examples
Off the top of my head I could only think of Aaron Brooks and Derrick Byars, and both of those games were too painful to like to remember.
Streamin' and Threadin' and Shellin
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up Bennett.
Bennett is gone and we will never play that style again unless we get a Bennett disciple or Ben Johnson takes over and that is not happening. I don’t think Bennett would have done any better than Bone has the last couple years. Klay thrived in Bone’s system, which help him get into a flow offensively. Who is to say Klay would have flourish offensively in Bennett’s system, like he did in Bone’s. Bennett was successful with Weaver, Low, Baynes, Forrest, etc. who were good at making the most of their limited offensive chances. I don’t think our team the last two years were set up that way offensively.
I think Bone landed a good recruiting class for next year and we also have Woolridge who is a Kansas transfer. I think Longrus is going to be a good defender for this squad. All four guys he signed are long. The are all taller than 6’5". This gives you great length on the defensive end. Three out of the four recruits had offers from major schools in the Pac12 and other major conferences. The next 3 years will be very telling on how Bone is doing.
Do you think Bennett’s system is the only system that will work in Pullman?
I love it when CougCenter goes green, because it usually means we are winning.
Lacking first round NBA draft picks, I do think lights out defense is the only way the Cougs can win consistently
Being in every game with a chance to win at the end is what I want to see from the Cougs and in my memory which goes back to George Raveling, the Bennett’s were the only coaches that were consistently competitive because their teams played the hell out of every possession which guaranteed a high percentage shot and they played the toughest defense in the country which almost guaranteed they had a decent shot at winning every time out.
In my opinion defense is all about hard core attitude and hustle which I haven’t seen since Tony Bennett left. And unfortunately without that attitude I don’t expect the Cougs to finish at or near the top of the Pac any time soon. Especially if they insist on playing the same game that every other team is playing.
I think it’s safe to say the Cougs will never have elite talent top to bottom so they’ll always lose to the better teams if coach Bone insists on playing the same game as they do. But with kick ass defense an average team can keep it close and routinely beat lower division teams plus have a legit shot at beating superior teams. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 15, 2011 11:53 PM PST up reply actions
Well then you will have to become a Virginia fan,
because that isn’t going to happen here for a while. Unless, a Bennett disciple becomes coach here. There are not many schools that have that defensive mentality. The comments on this site are not going to make Bone change to the pack defense or cut down offensive possessions.
I think the point you are trying to say is with Bennett you always felt like you were in the game, where with Bone sometimes it is a forgone conclusion that we are going to lose a game. A Bennett team and a Bone team could end up with the same record, but with the Bennett team you feel like you are in more games, which is the system’s intent. I think it can make feel like you are a better team than you are, because the score is closer.
Sometimes I felt Bennett ball was smoke and mirrors, because it gave you the impression you were always in the game, but we didn’t always have the offensive precision to pull it off. You have to more perfect on offense in Bennett’s system with nonathletic players (at least offensively), which can be frustrating because you have limited opportunities.
I think Bone did better the last two years (record wise) than Tony would have done, but with Tony you would have felt like you were in more games. When the Bennetts arrived we (at least I) hated Bennett ball at first because it was so frustrating to watch, but then we became accustom to it, because we loved to see how frustrated the other team would get. Now that the Bennetts are gone people are still in love with it. It is gone for now and it isn’t coming back.
If we were not winning with Bennett ball it was because the offense was so horrible, which if you like offense it was really hard to watch. I enjoyed the Bennetts when they were here, but they are not coming back. Also, it took a while for them to start winning. Do you remember those 3 seasons? Everyone remembers the two good ones. It was a rough first three years and who is to say Tony would have stayed successful at WSU. He left at the right time. Out of six seasons there was 2 really good seasons.
2003-04 13-16
2004-05 12-16
2005-06 11-17
2006-07 26-8
2007-08 26-9
2008-09 17-16
Bone went 22-13 last year. I think people need to embrace Bone Ball and stop comparing it to other systems, because that is not what he runs and we will not run those systems. If you want to be critical of the current coach or analyze the game then don’t compare it to past coaches. Be critical of what he failed to do with his own system. For instance, I think he played zone to long or he should have use the half court press earlier so Pangos doesn’t get his 3pt shot off. Or he left Aden and Capers in to long. Or I think Lacy and Ladd are ready for more playing time. Saying Bone should run the “Pack Defense” and limit offensive possessions does nothing, that is still living in the Bennett era, which we are not in.
I understand what type of coach you want in Pullman and what you think “wins” in Pullman, but we currently don’t have what you think we need. Everyone is stuck with this mentality that we need special types of coaches in Pullman for both football and basketball. I think we just need good coaches, because if you win talent will come. Instead of constantly talking about what type of coach we should hav,e why don’t we talk about what is going on now. We can talk about the other kind of coach if he arrives.
At least give Bone some time and I think we have lived in the past with Bennett long enough. Bone went 22-13 last year.
I love it when CougCenter goes green, because it usually means we are winning.
by SoCalCoug on Nov 16, 2011 8:59 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I think you hit the nail on the head saying with Bennett the Cougs were always in the game
and with coach Bone sometimes it is a forgone conclusion that we are going to lose a game.
Having an NBA first round gun the past few years was a gigantic aberration. Take away Klay Thompson and what does coach Bone give us? A mediocre offensive team with an average defense. Like I said, middle of the Pac or worse.
All I’m saying is our recruiting disadvantage, which we will realistically always have, can only be overcome by doing the one thing we have the ability to control, better than everyone else, and that is playing defense. You can’t easily (or sometimes ever) turn a defender into a shooter but you can always turn a shooter into a defender by pounding into his head that defense, which includes everyone blocking out on rebounds, is at least as important as offense.
I’ll leave it at that. I hope and pray the Cougs have a good season but without obvious offensive firepower and only a sufficient defense I see them finishing where they are forecast to finish which really sucks.
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 16, 2011 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
Ya but my point was
that just like it seem like we were in the game with Bennett, but we really weren’t. It was close, but a lot of times we didn’t have the offense to actually pull it off. A loss is a loss weather it is close or not. Bennett’s system made the fan feel like we were actually in it, but how many times did we say man if we would have just hit that shot? Or if that other players defender didn’t light it up from 3 land. Bennett’s defenses also got torched from behind the 3 point line, which many people fail to remember. Now with Bone we are looking at different areas we wish we have done better in. I don’t think all of Bone’s players have to be elite in his system. There are successful programs out there that don’t run Bennett’s system. I don’t think we have to run Bennett’s system in Pullman to have a good program. I think you are selling Bone short to early. I don’t think we are at a recruiting disadvantage in basketball. We have a good class coming in next year. We beat out a lot of programs for the guys we got. I think you are being to negative of what we can do.
I love it when CougCenter goes green, because it usually means we are winning.
by SoCalCoug on Nov 16, 2011 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
You're probably right - borrowing trouble looking at the downside
I just really, really liked it when the Cougs played as tough as every team out there and how once the guys got acclimated to the Bennett’s junkyard dog defensive atmosphere all it took was one guy to rise up on offense to bring home the W.
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 16, 2011 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
I think Bone has his players playing just as hard if not harder than Bennett.
Close games with few possessions just makes it look like they are playing tough, when they are actually not playing as hard. Bennett’s teams would walk the ball up the court on every single offensive possession. How many fast breaks did you see under Bennett? Maybe one. If anything they didn’t work as hard so they could save their energy for the defensive end. Many times it was a boring brand of basketball, but WSU fans loved it (including myself) because we started to win. Just cause one system worked for two seasons doesn’t mean that is the only way in Pullman. There are many different ways to win.
Watching Bennett ball was liking watching a national league baseball team play that couldn’t hit. Sometimes is seems fun because they are in it and they are scrappy, but in the end it is still a loss. All it took was one good hitter on the other team and your hopes were dashed. But we were scrappy and we kept it close, when in reality a loss is a loss and a more frustrating loss.
I think Bone runs an exciting brand of basketball that a lot of players will want to play for. We gave the Bennetts four years to turn it around, give Bone some time. And we have to because Bennett isn’t coming back. Bone is a good coach and hopefully he is starting to get his type of players in the system. Time will tell.
I love it when CougCenter goes green, because it usually means we are winning.
You really have no idea what Ken Bone gives us without a first-round NBA player.
None of us do. Your blanket assumptions don’t reflect well on you.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 16, 2011 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Also, want to know why it always seemed like we were in games?
Because we were playing games with possessions in the upper 50s. Reduces the margin.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 16, 2011 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
This is the biggest difference.
The games felt closer because they were in terms of score. But because of the difference in # of possessions, being down by 12 felt like being down by 20, just like if the Cougs had a 12 point lead it felt like the game was in hand.
yikes
I think it’s safe to say the Cougs will never have elite talent top to bottom so they’ll always lose to the better teams if coach Bone insists on playing the same game as they do.
I think it’s safe to say you have no idea what Coach Bone is doing if you think everyone’s playing the “same game”
by BigWood! on Nov 16, 2011 9:05 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
But Bone isn't playing the same offense they are.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 16, 2011 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
To be clear, by same game I mean the same tempo game intended to put up 70-80 points every night
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 16, 2011 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
there are dozens of ways to get to 70-80 points every night
not all of them require having a team full of five star athletes. in fact, most of them don’t.
by BigWood! on Nov 16, 2011 11:52 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You guys are probably right
I just have lots of memories from lots of years of watching average or worse Cougars hoops teams and pretty much the only teams that really stood out were from the Bennett era when they made the guys play tougher defense than every team they faced. Or I might be, to borrow a Bush’ism, mis-remembering. Things get kind of foggy once you reach my age. That is all.
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 16, 2011 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
The good news is you can go into bookstores and steal things.
If they catch you just say, “I’m an old man, I’m confused. Where am I?”
by Mark Sandritter on Nov 16, 2011 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Right - isn't this the library???
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 16, 2011 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
I don't want to give the wrong impression.
I loved the Bennett teams. I loved what we did under them. I wish Tony would have stuck around for a while, and I lean toward your camp that playing that style is probably the most likely route to sustained success for Washington State.
But nothing lasts forever, unfortunately, and Ken Bone is our coach. I just try really hard to not let my fond memories influence judgments of what’s happening now, especially when we just don’t have enough of a sample size on Bone. He’s been coaching a mish-mash of Bennett’s players and whatever guys he could find on the street, and I think producing a 20-win season out of that is pretty damn good. I’m reserving overall judgment until at least the end of next season, and possibly the one after that.
by Jeff Nusser on Nov 16, 2011 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with this.
Which I didn’t do a good job of conveying in my previous comments.
I love it when CougCenter goes green, because it usually means we are winning.
And I do agree with you and Jeff. I really like coach Bone
I like his personal style a lot and think he might be the perfect hire for the hoops program (and though I know you guys will probably want to ban me for saying it, I also think coach Wulff might be the perfect hire, regardless of his current W/L record).
But I also see the most successful run in Cougars hoops history, which was based on the best defensive coached teams in Cougars hoops history, fading into the past with little or no apparent recognition from the current coaching staff that D was what made all that success possible.
And even though I prefer good defense and fewer points in close games to lots of offense in blow-out games I am NOT older than dirt so don’t you guys start saying I am. I am merely older than most of you…
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 16, 2011 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
If I remember right
Bone tried to incorporate the pack defense at first because Ben Johnson knows how to run it. Bone figured the personnel he had knew how to run the pack defense, so he thought he would try it out but it was a failure. Then they tried some Pack hybrid defense which was atrocious. Then he went man to man for a while. Then last year he went zone because most of our guys couldn’t guard one-on-one for a whole game.
This year I think he will mix up the zone with one-on-one, trapping and ball pressure pass the 3 point line. Bone and Hiro are good basketball minds (just ask other coaches), but I don’t think we will see their true identity as coaches until the roster is full of their recruits (and not last minutes recruits they needed to fill spots). It will be similar to UW with athletic defenders, ball pressure and an exciting brand of basketball.
By the way we don’t think you are old. Most stuff on here is tongue and cheek. It is all in jest.
I love it when CougCenter goes green, because it usually means we are winning.
HA! The close of my last comment was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek<;]
And thanks for all the contrarian viewpoints. It has been interesting.
Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits
by Say Howdy Kid on Nov 16, 2011 7:53 PM PST up reply actions
Every coach has to be true to who they are
Ken Bone is an offensive-minded coach. So he’s going to recruit guys to run an offensive-minded system and run that system. But he doesn’t neglect defense altogether — last year’s team was actually a vastly underrated squad. I think it gets discounted because it wasn’t elite, but we might not ever see an elite defense like that in Pullman again.
missing bullet point
Woolybugger’s game thread comments cost us the game.
banination time for that dumbass
by woolybugger on Nov 15, 2011 7:30 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
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