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Jon Wilner: WSU Basketball Headed For 11th Place Pac-12 Finish

One of the challenges of any college site in the offseason is filling it with interesting content, and sometimes, without even that, we do silly things like try to project how a basketball season that is still six months from starting might turn out.

Jon Wilner of the San Jose Mercury News does some fine work down there in California -- notably, he's been out in front of virtually all of the media contract negotiations since, well, forever. About the only thing I can remember him getting beat on from a conference level was the Pac-16 foray, and we all know how Chip Brown got his information, so that was hardly a fair fight to begin with.

At any rate, Wilner took a stab at how the new 12-team league could shake out, and predictably, he's not real high on the Cougs:

11. Washington State (8). Faisal Aden is a good complementary player. When he projects as your No. 1 scorer, it’s time to worry.

He's got the Cougs sandwiched between 10th-place Arizona State and 12th-place Utah, and I think it's pretty hard to argue with that at this juncture. Losing the best scorer in the league and the team's only reasonably decent two-way frontcourt player from a team that struggled to a .500 finish last year doesn't inspire confidence.

I actually think the team will be OK on the perimeter, as DaVonte Lacy is very good, and Mychal Ladd is better than most people know. But unless Greg Sequele and D.J. Shelton are a lot better than they appear, the frontcourt will be the death of this team. What we really needed was to add to DeAngelo Casto, not replace him.

Do I think this team is destined for the bottom of the conference? The fan in me is hoping not, and I can envision scenarios where it doesn't happen. But if I wanted to argue that point with someone like Wilner right now, I'm pretty sure I couldn't win that one.

How about you? What are your expectations for the year?

Poll
Where do you expect the Cougs to finish next year in Pac-12 basketball?
First tier (1st-4th)
20 votes
Second tier (5th-8th)
200 votes
Third tier (9th-12th)
282 votes

502 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 51 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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I can't see us above 10th unless there are injuries or other implosions with OSU or Colorado

I can see Reggie taking a step forward. Aden maybe a small step forward. Agree that Ladd will be much better than people expect, but won’t come close to replacing Klay on both ends of the floor and it’s unfair to expect him to.

Capers and Lodwick are what they are. Maybe Lodwick can dial in his 3’s a little better, but beyond that I’m not expecting much more from him. I think Motum could take a step forward, but too bad he’s playing out of position and will struggle against a lot of bodies in the Pac-12.

Am I crazy to think Simon could potentially play some 5 if he hits the weight room? He has a bigger frame than Motum and doesn’t shy away from contact. Most of his struggles were due to foot work and strength, hopefully a year of experience and summer in the weight room can help with that.

But the thought of any of our front court combinations trying to match up with UCLA’s makes me tremble.

And what’s the over/under for the amount of zone/man we play in conference games? 80/20?

by gbob on May 16, 2011 4:22 PM PDT reply actions  

"Am I crazy to think Simon could potentially play some 5 if he hits the weight room?"

Yes. I was with you until this part.

I have no idea how Bone’s going to try and make this all come together on defense. I have an idea of what he’ll try to do offensively, but defensively? No clue. In a lot of ways, I’m actually more excited for this season than last. I think Bone’s going to show everyone how good of a coach he is.

by Jeff Nusser on May 16, 2011 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well, Vince first brought it up last year so I don't feel too crazy...

Agree that I’m actually looking forward to this season. There was just a lot of stand-around-and-wait-for-Klay-to-do-something these last 2 years. I got that vibe from both the players and the coaches. This year is going to force the issue of coaching schemes for a more even point distribution, and every player on the floor taking responsibility. I think we’ll find out more about Bone this year than we have the past 2 years combined.

by gbob on May 16, 2011 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you think Bone will move towards a Princeton style offense?

You know, ala UCLA home game with no Klay?

If not, please share. I’m (we) interested in hearing it.

by Austin Kittelson on May 16, 2011 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

The main issue with that is that we don't have a great passing big man.

Motum could be that guy — he had a couple of assists against UCLA.

I actually think a lot depends on Moore. If he’s actually healthy and has his explosiveness back, you could see a lot of stuff with the ball in his hands like you saw with Klay the last two years — picks and rolls/pops, isolation, etc.

Even if he is, I’m betting with the number of guards we’ve got and the lack of a true post presence, you’ll see a lot of motion offense that actually will look a lot like what you saw under the Bennetts. It likely won’t milk the clock the same way, but the same principles will be there.

by Jeff Nusser on May 19, 2011 9:29 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Sigh..

One of the worst parts about this is that if I recall correctly there was a poll of either coaches or media members or something or other where WSU garnered a first place vote and averaged around 3rd or 4th. I can’t remember where this poll was from (perhaps a post regular season poll) if someone else recalls this too, back me up. At this point however, anything above 8th would be a huge victory in my book.

I’ve talked with Ladd a few times due to some mutual friends and he seemed pretty stoked to be looking at getting a good amount of playing time. And this was over a month ago. Additionally, I think Ladd is a great fit for Bone’s system, possesses a solid stroke and has the length and athleticism to play harassing defense in the zone. Between him, Capers and a focused Moore I’m not fearful of the backcourt leading the collapse. But upfront, yikes.

I’’m personally of the opinion that Simon doesn’t have the physical tools to make it in the Pac-10 (err..12). I haven’t been paying a ton of attention to the rosters of other schools at this point, the loss in the NIT Semis killed a good deal of my college basketball enthusiasm, but my brain has a very difficult time imagining Simon not get murdered on the defensive end against blue chippers. The dearth of frontcourt talent and experience will undoubtedly put Motum in extremely unfavorable situations on defense and may prevent him from continuing to grow on the offensive end.

My other concern (and I know unfounded speculation in this subject is a CougCenter faux pas) is how Bone’s career is going to play out at WSU. Does he bear any responsibility for the loss of Klay and DeAngelo? Or does Moos view those developments outside his control? In this respect, does Bone sort of get a free pass for this season? I’m more asking these questions because I admittedly don’t have much knowledge in how these sort of situations go down and would appreciate some insight if anyone can provide it. And forgive me for potentially opening up the can of speculative worms.

Considering the optimism I held 10 months ago for this team, prognosticating on this next season feels like trying smile while taking a shot in the gut. Le sigh.

by mjkleko on May 16, 2011 4:50 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

How Bone's career plays out

I think those are fair questions. Anecdotally, Moos has demonstrated he’s more than fair with his coaches, and I’d guess he’ll be doing what a lot of us will do: Judging him starting with the class he signs this upcoming year and then the results he begins to produce with those guys.

by Jeff Nusser on May 16, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great comments

I think Ladd can be the difference between a bottom tier team and a middle-upper tier team. We should be pretty solid at the guard position, like you said.

I’m not down on Simon like some… his upside is a poor man’s Klay Thompson and I think he can get there with work. The bigger concern is just the complete and utter lack of depth in the frontcourt. I like Motum, but he can be stopped one-on-one by a physical defender. No double-teams mean fewer opportunities for everyone else. And when Motum’s out? Then what?

I would’ve appreciated Bone coming out and publicly saying he’d prefer Klay to stay another year. But outside of that I don’t fault him for either situation. The Casto situation was unique, complicated, and may not have been fixed by any coach.

The good news is with lower expectations next year, we can’t possibly be disappointed.

Right?

Writer: CougCenter Twitterer: @GradyClapp

by Grady Clapp on May 16, 2011 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Bone's career.

I was gonna say something similar. I agree. I think these next two years are going to decide how the man’s career plays out at this school. We’ve grown used to having decent basketball at this school, and with what happened to the football team under Doba I think people are going to be extra wary about keeping around a coach if he has two absolutely dismal seasons in a row. With how bad football is right now, I think that’s going to put everyone on edge when it comes to decisions like this.

Attractive, Intelligent, Short Attention Span, Timbers Fan Reader

by Coug999 on May 16, 2011 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

In all fairness to Doba..

Is it really his fault that his coaching staff couldn’t recruit?
But the essence of this post is correct sir. So rec’

Attractive, Intelligent, Smart A**

by Neil Vincent Roberts on May 17, 2011 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, Doba had some bad seasons and recruiting

but we all know the reasons for that. He had a lot of other things on his mind besides football. I think you know that, but we need to remember that.

"I don't know. I never smoked AstroTurf." Tug McGraw, when asked if he preferred grass or artificial turf

by SoCalCoug on May 17, 2011 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am well aware of that,

and that really isn’t the point of what I’m saying. I’m saying that the state of the football team I think will put many Coug fans on edge when it comes to a possible decline in basketball.

Attractive, Intelligent, Short Attention Span, Timbers Fan Reader

by Coug999 on May 17, 2011 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think the loss of Thompson was due to anything...

that Bone did or didn’t do.

As for Casto, because of his personal situation, he may have still left to try professional basketball. I am not sure if his strained relationship (as he stated) had anything to do with the decision. Perhaps a stronger relationship would have helped him stay another year. I just don’t know.

I’ve been skeptical of the Bone hire from day one. I really like the guy and hope he is successful at WSU, but I do question is leadership.

The drug problems we saw this season left most of us disappointed in how the team performed. They were not a “top 3” Pac-10 team in my opinion. However, we more team cohesiveness and focus, I think they could very well have finished as high as 4th and perhaps made it into the NCAA Tournament.

Next season will be very interesting as we have some significant challenges with our frontcourt (as others have rightly pointed out).

Just my $0.02.

by westsidecougar1 on May 17, 2011 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sigh

Don’t know what Bone had to do with Klay and Casto leaving. They made their own decisions. WSU will actually have a better team with Klay gone. They relied too much on him and when he wasn’t on the team went flat. What I am hoping to see is that Bone can get this team committed to playing every game and not coasting when they think they are better than someone else.

by Ted866 on May 16, 2011 6:26 PM PDT reply actions  

What team were you watching?

Of course we relied heavily on one of our three legit D-1 Pac 10 players….

by B-Lot tailgater on May 17, 2011 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know he goes by Mike

But isn’t Ladd’s name spelled Michael? That’s what it says on wsucougars.com, at least.

http://www.wsucougars.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/ladd_mike00.html

by evanr on May 16, 2011 9:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Apparently nobody knows how to spell it.

Mychal, Michael, Mike

Attractive, Intelligent, Short Attention Span, Timbers Fan Reader

by Coug999 on May 16, 2011 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

From the "Personal" sections

WSU: Born Michael Ladd in May of 1990…parents are Michael Ladd and Tracie Brown…has two younger sisters – Khadijah and Myzhanique…grandfather Gary Ladd played for Seattle University and later was drafted by the Seattle SuperSonics in 1972…plans to major in sport management at Washington State.

Fresno: Born May 20, 1990 … parents are Mychal Ladd and Tracie Brown … has two younger sisters – Khadijah and Myzhanique … grandfather, Gary Ladd, played for Seattle University and later was drafted by the Seattle SuperSonics in 1972

They are nearly identical except for the first name spelling.

by Mark Sandritter on May 16, 2011 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

For next season, I'm taking the same approach that I took for the potential of Klay leaving.

Assume the worst, and then be pleasantly surprised at anything better. It’s kind of sad because that seems to be the approach that I have to take to a lot of WSU sports at the moment. I voted bottom 3rd. Seeing Utah in Diamondhead, I’d say its a safe bet that we finish above them. I think that we can put up a decent fight to OSU and ASU for the 9th spot as well. Anything above that will be a bonus in my book.

Attractive, Intelligent, Short Attention Span, Timbers Fan Reader

by Coug999 on May 16, 2011 11:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Ladd is much more athletic than I thought. He can really jump.

Defensively with athletic ability I think he can be close Klay (similar size), he also is a good 3pt shooter (.391), so we won’t lose that much (Klay was .398), but the other intangibles that Klay gave us will be missing. Klay 2pt game statistics are much better. Klay 2pt percentage .466, Ladd’s 2pt percentage .414. Ladd has had a season to get stronger and work on his game (basically a redshirt year) so he may come out much better than expected. I hope to see about 12ppg out of him and solid D. I have watch a few videos of him and he has that competitive fiery spirit that you like in a player.
http://youtu.be/yUgqt1CP3MU
I think Reggie plays a little better, Aden will enjoy starting a play a little better, Motum will get more minutes and be better, but still a defensive liability, Capers will be Capers, Lodwick will continue to improve his in-game 3pt shooting, Ladd will be solid (10-12ppg), Winston’s game doesn’t change much (if he is still here), not much PT from DKD, Simon (if he is still around) doesn’t change much, Bjornstad (if he doesn’t quit from medical reasons) won’t play much, Lacy will get some back up minutes and increase his minutes by the end of the season, I really hope Sequele and Shelton can share minutes and give us some athletic bigs (rebounding and blocking) to replace Casto and I hope Dilorio can add some offense to his game and pick up more minutes. I am curious if there will be any attrition with Winston, Bjornstad (medical), Simon and maybe DKD.
Best case scenario in the Pac12 – 5th place, worst case – 11th, most likely – 8th place.
On Wilners projections I don’t see us player better then the top 7 teams he has listed. Teams will have to fall apart for us to place higher. It won’t be because of our talent if we place higher, it will be because something that happened (injuries, chemistry, off-court issues, academics, etc.) to the teams that are projected to be better than us. To get higher than 8th place Bone may have to pull one of these.

"I don't know. I never smoked AstroTurf." Tug McGraw, when asked if he preferred grass or artificial turf

by SoCalCoug on May 17, 2011 7:54 AM PDT reply actions  

i think 11th place is more likely than 8th.

i know you were trying to split the difference, but next year is going to be the very definition of a rebuilding year.

If anyone is “worried” about next year, don’t be. Enjoy the season for what it is: getting the young guys ready for 2012-13.

by BigWood! on May 17, 2011 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

to add, i do think 8th is possible

oregon state, utah and arizona state are all going to be as awful as us. Stanford, USC and Colorado could also be bad, too.

by BigWood! on May 17, 2011 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

That is why I was thinking 8th

USC lost their big man Vucavic to the draft and their top defender Stepheson is graduating. I am not that high on Fontan and who knows what is happening with their coach after he nearly beat up a Arizona booster. CU is losing their equivalent to Klay in Alec Burks. Utah is rebuilding and their is another team or two who could tank allowing us into 8th place. Bone may be able to run a more balanced attack without KT. Everyone can’t stand around and watch Klay anymore. We will see. Its really bad if my WSU bias sees us at 8th instead of 11th huh? Sheesh. I hope we make strides and this isn’t the norm again.

"I don't know. I never smoked AstroTurf." Tug McGraw, when asked if he preferred grass or artificial turf

by SoCalCoug on May 17, 2011 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I see why you did the three-tier voting option

but when it comes to good and bad teams it will be a two-tier league. I hope The Pac will get back to having great basketball. This NBA attrition has been killing our conference.

"I don't know. I never smoked AstroTurf." Tug McGraw, when asked if he preferred grass or artificial turf

by SoCalCoug on May 17, 2011 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

reply

I am trying to be optimistic, but I’m really worried. I do think theres’ a chance we will be a better TEAM next year, as way too many times everybody stood around and expected Thompson to score. Locwick and Capers are no better than when they started. I don’t think Simon is a pac12 player. I am really unimpressed with Aden;’ I don’t like his attitude; he plays defense when he feels like it, throws the ball away, jacks up bad 3s, and in general I don’t think he understands how important this is. Our frontcourt makes me cringe, unless these two new guys Shelton and Sequele can play immediately. From what I’ve read, they are “projects” and won’t be ready immediately. Motum has liabilites on defense and his hands are slow. Moore seemed to give up the last half of the season and didn’t play PG the way it should be played. I have never liked his selfish, me-first AAU ball attitude; maybe things will improve.
To me, Bone doesn’t emphasize the things that keep a team like WSU in games: reboundiing, defense, valuing every posession, and playing hard every game. I see 9-12; I hope I’m wrong. I like Bone as a person; last season he said he was happy with the way the team played; I thought we under-achieved and should have gone to the NCAAs.

by bpcoug53 on May 17, 2011 9:23 AM PDT reply actions  

"in general I don’t think he understands how important this is"

Maybe he doesn’t understand how to play team basketball or what constitutes a quality shot, but to say that a guy who grew up in the midst of a civil war in Africa then moved to another country and went to two high schools and a junior college before getting to WSU to pursue his dream of playing basketball doesn’t “understand how important this is” is about the most misguided statement I’ve ever read on this site. And that’s saying something.

Although, this was a close second: "Bone doesn’t emphasize the things that keep a team like WSU in games: reboundiing, defense, valuing every posession, and playing hard every game. "

You did know that we were third in the Pac-10 in adjusted defensive efficiency and 64th nationally in offensive turnover percentage, right? But don’t let facts get in the way of a good preconceived notion or anything.

by Jeff Nusser on May 17, 2011 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

lol

I like your style Nuss

by Samsinite on May 17, 2011 11:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

03-09 averages at:

99. Ken Bone averages at 126.5. But, the Bennets had the two years of 6 and 9 with a team that was stellar. If you take those two years out, its not good. Plus, I don’t think there is enough stats to really paint a clear picture, so don’t try.

by Samsinite on May 17, 2011 1:07 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

You wouldn't take them out

But, expecting most of their teams to rank in the top 10 in Adj rank is unrealistic. I’m no stats expert, but I would think that the weight from the extreme top and bottom values would be greatly diminished. I also don’t understand how we would be able to come to any solid conclusion using statistics from a team that Ken Bone coached for only two years.

by Samsinite on May 17, 2011 5:09 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Call me an optimist...

   But 11th place? Mr. Wilner talks like he’s looked into our team but I question how much he knows about these new players. I like that he threw credit to Lacy and Ladd, but I think these players, especially Ladd, will see lots of playing time and will contribute considerably (more than Wilner thinks). Between Lacy, Ladd, Aden and Moore our back court has some serious shooting power, and unlike last year, we have depth and can rotate guys in and out to see who is on instead of waiting around for Klay to light up.

   As for our front court? I agree to an extent. We don’t have someone who can push around guys like Nelson and Smith, but that doesn’t mean it’s all over. I like Motum for his ability to draw charges (plays smart basketball) and his quick decisions under the basket (efficient on offense). Shelton is going to be better than people think. The kid is athletic, can easily be a predominant shot blocker, and has a much better shot than Casto ever did. If he can add a few 20 lbs look out. Watch the tapes on Shelton and Ladd and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

   Will there be growing pains? Of course there will, but the Cougs have talent and depth and I don’t see how you can put us at 11th, but I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. Just my 60 cents. Can’t wait for football or basketball.

by BeastModeCrimson on May 17, 2011 11:37 PM PDT reply actions  

In the interest of clarity

Wilner didn’t mention anything about Ladd and Lacy. That was me. My main concern in the back court? You’ve got five guys, only two or three of which can play at a time. You know Moore is playing 35 minutes … see what I mean? Without a volume shooter like Thompson to give you large-scale production, you need to spread it around, and I do not believe any combination of two big men will give us the same production as Casto and whoever was next to him gave us.

by Jeff Nusser on May 18, 2011 6:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

was the only time you watched Motum on defense when he drew charges?

because he was pretty horrible in remaining 95% of those possessions.

by BigWood! on May 18, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

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