NFL QB's in Leach's offense?
by jeremyb91 on Feb 18, 2012 12:56 PM PST
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PrintI'm very curious to see what happens with the QB's who are going to play in Leach's offenses at WSU. It's been awhile since WSU had a 1st round QB and I'm curious if the system Leach runs is going to kick out the non-drafted QB's like it did at Texas Tech, or if he's going to upgrade the quality of his QB from the recruiting QB haven of California and produce some NFL QB's at WSU?
Connor Halliday and Jeff Tuel are equal to any QB Leach had at Texas Tech including Graham Harrell in terms of talent. If Mike Leach's offense this year becomes a high-scoring offense before the season's over and they go to a bowl game, it's likely Leach's going to land a 4 star type QB eventually to direct this offense.
I want to point out as long as WSU is winning, I could care less if it's behind a Jason Gesser type QB (practice squad fodder for the NFL) or Ryan Leaf type (NFL 1st round pick bound). But if Leach is able to get some QB's to the NFL and can recruit those type of QB's to Pullman, WSU will be better because of it.
His highest rated QB was 4 star Graham Harrell who ended up his best QB giving Tech their best year ever in 2008. Does he keep recruiting the Graham Harrell's and Jason Gesser's of the world, or does he kick out NFL QB's? I'm curious to see what happens.
This FanPost does not necessarily reflect the views of the site's writers or editors, who may not have verified its accuracy. It does, however, reflect the views of this particular fan, which is just as important as the views of our writers or editors.
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Texas is a QB haven as well
Yes, you should follow another Coug-related account on Twitter: @425CougFan
Is this what WSU fans in Texas have to look forward to?
I’m sure your statement is subjective and contains some west coast bias, but could you tone it down a little?
I like coming here and would rather not have to deal with anti-Texas overtones if you don’t mind.
Here, check this out: http://espn.go.com/high-school/football/great-state-debate/story/_/id/7459739/five-states-stand-tall-qb-debate
"It all depends on the quarterback."
---Jerry Rice
The great debate
I’m not giving out anti-Texas overtones here, in my opinion CA is the better state for future NFL QB’s as there’s enough in your link to argue for CA. You could argue for Texas and have a good argument as well.
I’m not saying Texas isn’t a place to nab QB’s and other NFL bound players either, it’s just CA leads the nation in producing future NFL players followed by Texas and then Florida. And that’s not West Coast bias, that’s facts.
You've changed the criteria
Nevertheless, all I’m asking for is little cordiality toward your fellow WSU fans that happen to live in Texas.
…could you tone it down a little?
Is that asking too much?
"It all depends on the quarterback."
---Jerry Rice
I think you're taking this way too personally.
No one ever said Texas sucked. I don’t even know if I agree with his “CA is better for QBs than TX” statement, but it’s his opinion. That’s it.
If you think what he said was bad, don’t ever read anything I say to Tech fans because you’ll think I hate them with the fire of 1,000 suns.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
I've been reading the stuff here for a while and actually like what you bring
I just thought Jeremy went a little overboard dissing 10 years of QB production at TT under Mike Leach.
Sonny Cumbie owned Aaron Rodgers.
"It all depends on the quarterback."
---Jerry Rice
How did he dismiss it?
He merely pointed at that the QB’s from Tech didn’t play much in the NFL.
CougCenter In Reid We Trust, Twitter!
by Craig Powers on Feb 19, 2012 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
It's a system, I'm not dissing the production
Every year from 2003 on (I don’t have the stats for before so there could be more years) Leach’s passing offense was top 3 regardless of QB. So yes there’s plenty of production from the QB spot regardless if it’s Cody Hedges, Sonny Cumbie, or Graham Harrell.
But I just said Mike Leach hasn’t had a NFL talent to work at QB his whole time at Texas Tech. If you think that’s going overboard, you are pretty touchy.
There’s no dissing on Texas here just because I have a “west coast bias.” Actually I live in the Midwest and haven’t lived on the West Coast for 12 years. Just because I choose CA over Texas in terms of kicking out talent, doesn’t mean I have anything against Texas or Texas Tech.
And btw, I’m absolutely thrilled Mike Leach is the new head coach of WSU.
Based entirely off of 2011 NFL rosters CA currently holds the advantage.
91 total quarterbacks on NFL rosters, 23 from California, 15 from Texas.
Considering it seems Leach is going to recruit both states heavily, I don’t think he will have a problem finding quarterbacks.
by Mark Sandritter on Feb 19, 2012 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
WSU passing QB's can't come from Texas or Cali-
and here is why. The list of modern era Coug bowl QB’s and where they are from:
Gesser- Hawaii/ Leaf – Montana/ Bledsoe – Washington/ Rosenbach- Washington / /Kegel – Montana/ Rypien – Washington/ —
But- the runner Ricky Turner (Clete threw) was from Cali and the hapless Chad Davis was a Cali kid who transferred in from OK—
Thus- to run the Air Raid at WSU— no Cali guys allowed… and the record speaks for itself- no WSU QB’s from texas… so… stick with Montana and Washington state and occasionally pepper with a Hawaii guy.
I am kidding- next year a Cali Tuel will throw it in a bowl… about 60 times…
I am kidding 10fortech—
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
by hollyweirdcoug on Feb 21, 2012 1:02 AM PST up reply actions
Rypien was suppose to say (Super Bowl) ^
If you can't Go Cougs... don't go.
by hollyweirdcoug on Feb 21, 2012 1:04 AM PST up reply actions
Um
“Connor Halliday and Jeff Tuel are equal to any QB Leach had at Texas Tech including Graham Harrell in terms of talent.”
I’m sorry, but that is blatantly false. Graham Harrell is statistically one of the best college QBs of all time. Halliday has started one game, and played in another. Tuel has played one full season and parts of two others. There’s simply no way you can measure their “talent” without stats telling you Harrell is clearly better than both. I have no idea how you wind up lumping Harrell and Gesser together, either.
Finally, saying WSU will be better if Leach can recruit 1st Round picks in the NFL draft is like saying “If we win games instead of losing them, we will win a lot of games.” Who doesn’t want NFL 1st Rounders? If a player is that good, chances are he helped his team win more games than not.
You stole my point
I’m glad there are other people who are openly cautious about proclaiming Halliday’s greatness. Remember when Gary Rodgers led a few quality drives against Auburn in 2006? All the Halliday talk reminds me of the sudden wave of students calling for Rodgers to take the starting job from Brink. Though, I’ll admit Halliday probably has more talent than Rodgers, we just don’t know for sure yet.
But that was one amazing 80-yard drive.
Anything that results in a 6-8 tight end rumbling 50+ yards is good in my book.
by Mark Sandritter on Feb 19, 2012 1:27 AM PST up reply actions
Where did I discuss Halliday and greatness?
It doesn’t take a highly talented QB to succeed in Leach’s offense. Connor Halliday is among the most talented QB’s Leach has had to work with.
Like I noted above, talent equals potential. Halliday has a ton of potential. I’m not anointing him as the next best thing. I’m just saying he has the potential to be a great fit in Leach’s offense.
But the problem with this
is it’s all subjective. How do you know he’s one of the most talented QBs Leach has had to work with? Because you think he’s good?
By every measure, Harrell was head and shoulders better than Halliday. I get that you probably didn’t follow Tech much, but even if you did, trying to say who was/is more talented is kind of pointless. It’s all opinion based off of super small sample size, which is a bad way of doing things.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
Based on recruiting rankings really
Other than Graham Harrell who was the 15th best QB in the 2004 recruiting period, Leach typically had 2 or low 3 star QB’s go to Texas Tech.
So Halliday can be considered by recruiting rankings one of the most talented players Leach has had to work with. Based on Tuel’s freshman and sophomore years, I’d be willing to say Tuel can be added to the equation based on how’s he played.
You can't talk about recruiting rankings in one breath
and then talk about “based on Tuel’s freshman and sophomore years”. It’s one or the other, not both. Because if you do talk about how they progressed, Harrell still destroys both. So do guys like Sonnie Cumbie, BJ Symons, Kliff Kingsbury, etc.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
When Harrell didn't start until his 3rd year and Tuel started as a true freshman you can use the argument
Before last year’s injury, Jeff Tuel was progressing exceptionally well for the program. He had 2 years of starting experience compared to bench time for Graham Harrell so comparing those two years is pointless because it’s obvious Tuel destroys Harrell for the first 2 years.
Had Tuel been healthy last year and played behind a better O line, he could’ve progressed even more thus making your comparison of Harrell, Cumbie, Symons, and others off base.
As a sophomore he threw the ball 366 times with 28 TD’s and getting sacked 48 times. Imagine if he would’ve thrown the ball over 616 times like Graham Harrell did his first year whose numbers were 38 TD’s and was only getting sacked 19 times. Had Tuel had 616 attempts, wow, his numbers would’ve dwarfed most of the QB’s you mentioned.
Had Jeff Tuel had 250 more attempts, don’t think his numbers would have looked similar if not better than the QB’s you mentioned?
The thing with projections is that you have to project the bad as well.
Tuel was able to attempt a pass 366 times and sacked 48 times. If he would have attempted 616 passes, he would have been sacked close to 80 times. So if that’s the case, I don’t see Tuel finishing the season, I mean he’s only made it though 1 season without injury.
Tuel also only had 18 TDs and 12 INTs
that would extrapolate to about 20 INTs with 250 more attempts
That Harrell didn't start his first two years and was the career TD passing leader for a while speaks to the talent around him, no?
He redshirted, something Tuel was attempting to do but was forced to play due to a combination of injuries and zero talent on the roster at his position. Harrell could sit because Tech had competent QBs.
Tuel doesn’t destroy Harrell because he played as a true freshman. Tuel played as a true freshman because 2009 WSU was absolutely awful.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 6:36 PM PST up reply actions
It's not about the talent ahead of Harrell
As a true sophomore Jeff Tuel put up comparable numbers to what Harrell put up in 250 more attempts yet being sacked only 19 times as a first time starter, despite Tuel playing on a significantly worse team.
So saying Harrell destroys Tuel as well as the others guys you mentioned, that’s off base. It’s because of the system being used that Leach which allowed Harrell and the numerous other QB’s at Texas Tech to maintain a every year top 3 passing offense.
Their numbers arenbt' comparable, Tuel only had 18 TD passes,
20 less than Harrell, the 250 more attempts is not going to get their number that much closer.
Look at what Tuel worked with at WSU
If Tuel had 250 more pass attempts it would have put him at 30 TD’s (based on 250 being 68% of 366 and adding 12 TD’s to the existing 18). Yes he would have more INT’s, but you can’t legitimately compare a QB in a Mike Leach offense to that of a Todd Sturdy offense.
Isn't all recruiting subjective
So you calling yourself a Recruiting Expert would be a subjective title if it’s based off completely subjective concepts, correct?
by CougStar1234 on Feb 21, 2012 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
I still think you have to be a pretty talented QB to be in Leach's system,
maybe not a NFL type of QB but a very good College QB. Leach’s QB’s have to highly accurate and that isn’t always easy to find. I think there is also a lot of talented QB that couldn’t make it in Leach’s system.
CougCenter OG since 9/2/2008 | @TheSoCalCoug
You watch your mouth,
we would have won that Auburn game if Doba would have played Rodgers the whole game and Rodgers would have gone undefeated and we would have won the national championship. I don’t know what you are thinking.
CougCenter OG since 9/2/2008 | @TheSoCalCoug
System QB's
To say Jeff Tuel or Connor Halliday do not have the talent that Colt Brennan, Ty Detmer, Andre Ware, David Klinger, or Graham Harrell is false in itself.
I can show a list of system QB’s who played in systems like Leach’s, BYU, Hawaii, and others where QB’s were of OK talent (less talented than Tuel or Halliday) yet because of the system they played in they appeared to be among the greatest college QB’s ever.
Graham Harrell is statistically one of the best college QB’s ever. But no one would confuse him with being one of the best college QB’s ever. Tuel and Halliday are equal to any QB Leach had at Texas Tech in terms of talent. We’ll see in the future if that is true or not.
Talent equals potential. They have the potential to be as good if not better.
And finally, did you read the first sentence of the paragraph that discussed NFL quality type players being recruited? It would be nice if WSU can get them, but as long as they are winning is all that matters. I can only imagine how an NFL quality type QB would perform in Leach’s offense.
Talent is not probative of future success.
Talent is subjective and there is nothing to say that the talent of Tuel or Halliday will result in the statistical results achieved by Harrell, Brennan, et al. You can talk about potential all you want, but potential offers no guarantees.
Agreed
The point is that if you put Halliday or Tuel in any of those system offenses that have put up record numbers you would have the potential for some great offenses.
There’s no guarantee that either QB will be great in this system. But if you look at the talent of either QB compared to a bunch of unknown 2 star QB’s who have excelled in crazy system offenses you would have to believe there’s a lot of potential for these QB’s to excel.
Does this lead to a rehash of the "system quarterback" debate?
Cuz if it does I’m gonna need more Scotch.
"Nothing can bring you peace but the triumph of principles." ~ RW Emerson
by raider realist on Feb 19, 2012 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
Please don't
use the star ranking as an indicator of talent. Or “potential”. Maybe those “unknown 2 star QB’s” actually had talent, and that’s why they put up good numbers.
Why?
When you can take an average QB and drop him into a system that allows him to put up huge numbers you are going to make a 2 star QB look like a 4 star. Mike Leach and other coaches have made a living off of using their systems to make their QB’s look great.
How many of those system QB’s ended up performing in the NFL? Other than BYU’s Jim McMahon and Steve Young, most college system QB’s have been practice camp fodder for NFL teams because they were system QB’s, not very talented QB’s.
If Timmy Chang, Chase Daniel, Graham Harrell, Ty Detmer, Andre Ware, David Klingler, and a slew of others who have broke passing records were truly talented QB’s they would have made it in the NFL, not just be known as great college system QB’s. Instead they show us that you can take a 2 star player (not Graham Harrell) and have him excel in a system based offense and break records.
NFL quarterbacks coaches don't agree with you. Example, Jerry Rhome talking about Case Keenum being a "system quarterback"
“I heard the same identical thing about Andy Dalton last year,” Rhome said, referring to the quarterback the Cincinnati Bengals drafted out of TCU. “Exactly the same thing. I say the same thing. He will overcome all that. You’re looking for a player that can produce and play. This kid has produced and been a great player. He’s got great accuracy. He’s got plenty of arm strength. I laugh about it. I really laugh about it. I told everybody last year Andy Dalton is going to be the surprise of the NFL, and he is.”
"Nothing can bring you peace but the triumph of principles." ~ RW Emerson
by raider realist on Feb 19, 2012 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
Intended to link to this above
System Quarterback Myth from the perspective of an NFL QB Coach
"Nothing can bring you peace but the triumph of principles." ~ RW Emerson
by raider realist on Feb 19, 2012 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
And I mentioned Jim McMahon and Steve Young
But if you look at most system QB’s, they have failed in the NFL. Yes there will be some success stories, but for the most part a lot of them fail because they don’t have the arm or the talent to play in the NFL but can exploit college DB’s and do well. Its how a lot of smaller schools have excelled with the big programs like USC, Texas, Alabama, etc.
If it’s a myth, explain why Chase Daniels, Colt Brennan, Timmy Chang, and Graham Harrell weren’t 1st round picks and/or starting QB’s in the NFL?
Eventually the myth will go away when some of those offenses are bringing in big time talent to play the position. But schools that struggle to recruit big time players will continue to have QB’s excel in their systems. But, imagine if Matt Barkley or Andrew Luck played in a Leach type offense, it would be unreal.
That’s why I wrote the post. I’m curious if Leach is going to bring in players with future NFL talent, or players who are perfect system fits. WSU used to be known as QB U. Do they get back to that, or do they have Jason Gesser/Graham Harrell type QB’s who are great system fits?
I think you'll see Leach find guys that can "produce and play" at WSU.
"Nothing can bring you peace but the triumph of principles." ~ RW Emerson
by raider realist on Feb 19, 2012 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
There are 32 starting QB positions and only 32 1st round draft picks each year
There are usually less than 5 open starting positions any given year and teams are likely to address more dire needs/best available player early in the draft. The majority have guys who are pretty entrenched. Also, pointing to Daniel and Harrell, they play for New Orleans and Green Bay, respectively. There’s no way they are going to replace those QBs.
Looking at just starters or first round draft picks is much too narrow. You also point out several “system” QBs you didn’t pan out. Based on your examples, your definition of “system” seems to only include run and shoot and spread offenses. For every “system” QB that didn’t pan out, there are several more “non-system” QBs that didnt. Joey Harrington, Matt Leinart, Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Cade McNown, Danny Wuerfel, JaMarcus Russel, Kyle Boller and many more. Those guys were 1st round draft picks and some of them Heisman Trophy winners.
by sdcoug09 on Feb 19, 2012 12:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I point out first round picks because ..
Ryan Leaf, Drew Bledsoe, Timm Rosenbach (supplemental pick, but the Cardinals used a 1st).
Not many universities can lay claim to the QB history WSU has when it comes to 1st round picks besides USC and maybe a couple other big name programs.
Again
what does that have to do with anything?
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
Did you even bother reading the post?
What does it have to do with anything you ask, but don’t bother wondering why I pointed this out?
I pointed out WSU has a history of putting NFL players into the NFL. I’m curious if Leach gets stud QB’s or system fits to WSU.
So again, I’m pointing out WSU has a history of putting QB’s into the NFL because they used to be nicknamed QB U. Leach has the ability to now recruit a big time QB to WSU to play in his very QB friendly system. Does he recruit that type of QB or does he recruit a 2 or 3 star like he typically did at Texas Tech?
I think he will recurit the best possible QB he can get.
I don’t think Leach looks at it as" well I guess I will just settle for this 2 to 3-Star guys who will be accurate in my system." I think he will always try and get the best QB he can and if he does well he will go to the NFL. He has certain things he will definitely look at 1) Accuracy 2) Smarts and those are two things needed in good QB.
CougCenter OG since 9/2/2008 | @TheSoCalCoug
I think this is an excellent point
He values accuracy and smarts. I think we are going to see fewer Swogger’s, Birnbaum’s, and Mencke’s … big arm QB’s with questionable accuracy … moving forward.
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
WSU's history of putting players in the NFL
and WSU’s history of putting QBs in the NFL are two different things. Also, the last major QB WSU sent to the NFL was almost 15 years ago. You can count on one hand how many WSU QBs excelled in the NFL. So again I ask, what does this have to do with anything?
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
Used to be known as QB U
It’s been 15 years, but WSU is still known among a lot of fans outside the Pacific Northwest as producing some good NFL QB’s.
Will WSU ever get back to the point of being known as QB U? Will Mike Leach recruit big time QB’s to WSU or the typical 2 or low 3 star QB he did at Texas Tech?
I can count on one hand how many WSU QB’s have excelled in the NFL and you can compare that to other schools and WSU is right up there with some of the bigger programs.
So again, if you actually read the post instead of skimmed it, you would have understood the question being will Mike Leach recruit big time QB’s or his typical system fits and I wouldn’t have to keep explaining myself? I don’t care either way, I’m just curious if he alters his strategy and brings in a highly rated QB or his typical system fit.
I think he will bring in players that fit his needs
He wants smart & accurate QB’s. I think he will bring in the highest rated QB that fits his needs.
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
I did read the post. It just doesn't make any sense.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think his post makes a certain amount of sense
The resulting conversation … now that might not make nearly as much sense. I think it will be interesting to see if WSU puts a QB in the NFL. Isn’t that essentially what he was getting at?
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
Thanks for reading buddy!
It appears its something Kyle completely forgot to do when he decided to post a comment on this.
Wow, a comment with common sense
Did you read that post from HitKing69?
He read my post and came up with this:
I think his post makes a certain amount of sense
The resulting conversation … now that might not make nearly as much sense. I think it will be interesting to see if WSU puts a QB in the NFL. Isn’t that essentially what he was getting at?
Wow, how could he come up with that analogy of reading my post yet you come up with something completely different?
You need to chill out with your aggressiveness dude. Had you actually read my post you wouldn’t be getting so mad.
By the way Tim Couch played for Leach
so I guess you will have to group him into this “system” QB that is being talked about.
CougCenter OG since 9/2/2008 | @TheSoCalCoug
What's interesting is the system issue
Couch was prolific in the new offense that Mumme and Leach were playing at Kentucky. Just like the Run & Shoot at Houston which got Ware and Klingler 1st round picks before NFL teams caught on to the system.
Couch was the first Leach/Mumme system QB to get drafted high and failed miserably because he couldn’t read a defense or understand an NFL offense. Teams quickly caught on that Couch’s numbers were a product of the system, not his talent.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions that Couch "failed miserably."
I don’t think it was because he “couldn’t read defenses or understand an NFL offense.” That is a very broad assumption. He was in a horrible organization call the Browns. He developed elbow tendinitis which ultimately ended his career. From everything I have read and analyzed Couch was very intelligent and had a great arm. I think many people just assumed he washed out because as a high draft pick he never dominated in his NFL career. I think there was more to the story than just saying he “couldn’t read defense or understand an NFL offense.”
Ultimately it was his elbow problems (and not his talent) that cut his career short.
The point is playing QB is different from team to team, year to year, and I’d like to think that Couch’s career is still more of an unknown rather than a complete bust, as many rush to conclude.This writer makes valid points.
CougCenter OG since 9/2/2008 | @TheSoCalCoug
Couch wasn't a Leach recruit
It’s hard to know if Leach would have targeted him for his “system”.
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
I knew you knew that
I could tell from your other posts that you have some familiarity with Leach history.
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
Also
what does putting QBs in the NFL have to do with anything? You can be an amazing college QB and not have a future in the NFL. If someone like Alex Brink or Kellen Moore don’t really get a sniff in the NFL, that doesn’t suddenly devalue everything they did in college.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
WSU History
Like I noted above, as long as WSU is winning I don’t care if they are future NFL bound players, just as long as they are winning.
But, WSU has a history of kicking out NFL QB’s. It’s been awhile, but how many programs have kicked out as many 1st round or NFL bound QB’s as WSU has? Not many, so that’s why I mentioned putting QB’s into the NFL.
But simply putting QBs into the NFL is irrelevant.
And “kicking” roughly five QBs into the NFL is hardly some storied history.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
How many UW QB's have been drafted in the top 5?
Go out and find more than a handful of teams in college who have 3 QB’s drafted in the top 5 and get back to me. You could throw in Timm Rosenbach in that discussion as well making it 4 QB’s as very high 1st round picks.
You aren’t going to find a lot. It’s a lot more “storied” than you believe.
Thow in the Super Bowl ring for Mark Rypien and WSU’s QB history keeps looking better than a heck of a lot of college teams across the BCS.
That’s why WSU was known as QB U, not simply because they put 5 NFL QB’s into the NFL.
I have heard of WSU being called QB U, but I don't know if we are #1.
Standard seems to be at the top of the list, especially now with Andrew Luck probably going #1 in the draft.
The Indians/Cardinal have produced more pro-quality quarterbacks since 1960 than any other school in the country. And what an impressive list it is. John Elway, Jim Plunkett, John Brodie. Need I say more? Okay, I will. Steve Dils, Turk Schonert, Steve Stenstrom, Guy Benjamin, Chad Hutchinson. Nineteen former Stanford players have been scouted by and/or played pro football.This fellow Coug puts WSU at #17 on the list
CougCenter OG since 9/2/2008 | @TheSoCalCoug
In terms of top 5 QB's WSU is higher on the list
Even storied Stanford doesn’t have 3 QB’s drafted in the first 5 picks.
I would agree Stanford’s history with QB’s is greater than WSU’s, but seriously there are only a handful of programs who have produced multiple top 5 picks at the position.
WSU definitely isn’t number one QB’s to the NFL or even with top 5 picks, but it’s a lot better and storied than a lot of people believe it is.
Purdue
I believe Purdue QBs have thrown for more careers yards in the NFL than any other school combined. Saw it on Monday Night Football when the Saints/Colts played this year.
Brees, Papa Griese, Jim Everett, to name a few
by CougStar1234 on Feb 21, 2012 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
BUT WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
Jesus dude. What does UW have to do with this conversation? What does WSU having 3.5 QBs drafted in the Top 5 have to do with Leach possibly sending guys to the NFL?
Your entire post is just rambling. Here’s my summary of your post:
SHOULD MIKE LEACH RECRUIT 5 STAR PLAYERS? OR SHOULD HE RECRUIT GUYS WHO WON’T MAKE IT TO THE NFL? UMM I DUNNO BUT WSU PUTS QBS IN THE NFL DERP.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 6:41 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
And you wonder how the whole F*ck you Kyle Rancourt! thing started?
I agree with what you’re saying though. Plus the all caps is a nice touch.
"If you want your dreams to come true, don't sleep in."
I think it's pretty classless
and I’m surprised that it comes from a designated site author and that it has been rec’d 5 times. I don’t disagree with Kyle’s point, but posts like this seem to fly in the face of courteous discourse and aren’t often tolerated by casual posters.
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
by HitKing69 on Feb 19, 2012 9:19 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
The authors have double standards on this site
If I posted that, he would’ve put a warning the next time I came onto the site to tell me to cool off or that I would be banned from the site. Yet the authors seem to have full authority to treat anyone however they choose to.
I felt completely disrespected from this author’s comments. Thanks for reading my post and understanding what I meant.
Why you being an ASSHOLE?
You can’t come back with anything to show WSU doesn’t have a storied QB history. Instead you yell at me and ask me what the fuck it has to do with anything?
If I did what your post did, you would be putting in a “watch it dude” mode next time I logged into the site, yet it’s go for you to act this way?
Completely bullshit Kyle. There’s a level of standard that should come from both ends, not just just the people that comment on your site.
IF YOU NEED MORE, GO BACK AND LOOK AT HitKing69’s POST TO SEE WHY I MENTIONED QB’S IN THE NFL.
So again Kyle, the post is the fact WSU used to be known as QB U. Will Mike Leach make them this way again?
It just seems like you're making it as Leach can only have one or the other
He can either have a QB that fits well in his system or a highly rated, future 1st round draft pick. But a highly rated, 1st round pick that fits well in his system is not possible. They are not mutually exclusive, but it seems you’re making it out as such.
Can't we all agree that this argument has been exhausted?
Neither Jeremy nor Kyle seem capable of seeing of seeing the other’s perspective. The discussion has strayed so far from its original point, I’m not sure there is much point in continuing.
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
by HitKing69 on Feb 20, 2012 9:07 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Actually I do see Kyle's perspective
It’s just if I were Kyle had read this post like you did, the argument wouldn’t have been exhausting because the point of the argument has been will Mike Leach get WSU back to QB U or will he continue getting perfect system fits. It wasn’t that difficult.
It’s not even important if WSU gets back to QB U, I’m just curious if WSU will ever get back to the point with Leach. Leach had one 4 star player and that was the best performing QB he ever had in Graham Harrell. I wonder what Mike Leach can do with a high 4 star or 5 star QB compared to what he’s traditionally had.
Not at all
He can have either the future NFL bound QB or the system QB who lights it up in his system, I don’t care either way.
I’m just curious if WSU will ever be known as QB U again.
After this comment, I'm done with these back & forth on this post
There’s no room for going off on me on your site like you did above. There’s no room for either me or you to disrespect each other like you did. I don’t yell at you (all caps), I don’t use excessive language (WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING). I’ve learned from bouts when I first started commenting there are rules and regulations on commenting on this site. I’ve maintained those standards in respect of others on this site.
But for some reason, it’s OK to disrespect me? This is absolute bullshit. Would you be willing to yell me and talk like this to me in person? I highly doubt it. It’s tough talk behind a computer because it’s easy to disrespect someone on the internet w/o consequences. But I find it interesting that had I disrespected you with the exact same sentence you would have banned me from this site and informed me that I had broke the rules of respecting others on this site.
I’ll go ahead apologize for calling you an asshole in all caps. That was wrong and that’s why I’m writing this comment. You got the best of me and when I saw this, this morning I wrote w/o thinking and broke my own rules.
These fan posts are supposed to be a means of being able to bring up interesting discussions. Why not make a post about a question like this when there’s not much else to discuss football wise in February? You might have it idiotic and not be worthy of discussion, so be bit. But there’s no need for your aggression and bulldog mentality.
We can disagree and we usually do, but you were way out of line on this comment. I respect you in my comments and haven’t gone out of line and deserve the same respect in return.
by jeremyb91 on Feb 20, 2012 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Stay Classy
I thought you might actually respond to the comment in some form of apology, but it’s been over 24 hours and you haven’t said a peep so I guess you believe your actions were acceptable? That’s its OK to be the editor of the site and attack anyone on here with the bulldog mentality you seem to think is OK, but if anyone attacked you with the same mentality you would be banning them from the site instantaneously.
Respect is a two way street Kyle. If you can’t treat me with respect, don’t comment on any my posts. It’s simple really. We can disagree all day long, but I have never yelled at you or disrespected you on this site and you know it.
by jeremyb91 on Feb 21, 2012 5:42 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you should give him another 24 hours...
Then check here again, and make more comments.
by TrueCoug on Feb 21, 2012 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The "he's a system QB" argument is tired and erroneous.
Aren’t all QBs by definition system QBs? Matt Barkley and Andrew Luck are great because they play in a pro-style offense that suits their games. Matt Barkley would suck running a Wing T or military academy Triple Option. Does that make Matt Barkley a “system QB”?
Also, um, you’re calling guys WHO PLAYED IN THE SAME SYSTEM TUEL AND HALLIDAY WILL PLAY IN system QBs. That … that doesn’t make any sense. You can’t devalue stuff Brennan, Detmer, Ware etc (who you brought up, not me) because of their pass happy offenses and then praise Tuel and Halliday who are going to play in the exact same offenses.
You’re a little too crimson colored glasses for me on this one.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 12:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This is spot on.
Also WSU hasn’t been running a pro style offense, it’s very much a wide open spread concept. So doesn’t that make Tuel and Halliday “system” quarterbacks? Should we devalue the numbers they’ve put up in Sturdy’s offense since it was the spread?
Apples to Oranges?
There’s a big difference between comparing a prolific passing offense like Mike Leach’s or a Pro style offense to the Wing T or the Triple Options. That’s not comparing apples to apples.
Look at Hawaii, Houston, and a slew of other small non-BCS schools or small BCS programs like Texas Tech who have produced record setting college QB’s because they play in a QB friendly system. Would you be willing to say Colt Brennan, Timmy Chang, Chase Daniel, and others could excel in USC’s Pro style offense? If they could, they would succeed at higher rates in the NFL, but don’t. I wonder why, could be that they are merely system QB’s?
I’m not saying Tuel or Halliday are guarantees in this system, but I would say that they have the talent or potential to excel in Mike Leach’s QB friendly offense.
If Kliff Klingsbury and a bunch of other QB’s could take Texas Tech to a bowl game, why can’t I believe Tuel or Halliday have enough talent to be successful in this system?
Of course it's not comparing apples to apples. That's my entire point.
You’re not understanding that saying “guys like Ware, Detmer, etc didn’t succeed in the NFL because they’re system QBs” is ridiculous because no one runs Texas Tech’s offense in the NFL. Why do guys like Barkley, Luck, etc succeed? Because they run the same offense NFL teams do. Would Timmy Chang work in USC’s pro style offense? No. He’s too small, too weak an arm. Would Matt Barkley work in Georgia Tech’s triple option? No, he’s too slow, not mobile enough.
So when you originally talk about how these other guys don’t fit the NFL mold, you’re automatically comparing apples to oranges. You can’t devalue them for not fitting into the pro style offense and then praise someone who fits the pro style offense perfectly.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
Also
when a guy who is the right fit for a particular system succeeds in that system and attempts to go elsewhere, he can struggle. Matt Cassel looked like the next Tom Brady in New England’s offense because he was tailor made for that type of offense.
There are about 5 QBs who would succeed regardless of the offense they ran because they’re just amazing players. They’re the exception, not the rule.
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
Barkley in Georgia Tech's offense? Not a fair comparison
Barkley in June Jones’ offense yes, but no in an option. You can put a Pro style QB like Matt Barkley who is accurate and has a good arm in a spread offense and watch him really thrive. But for the most part you can’t take a system QB like a Brennan, Ware, etc and place them in a Pro style system and see them succeed. Using Barkley in a Georgia Tech’s offense makes no sense whatsoever in terms of comparison.
Look at how many times Mike Leach’s and June Jones’ passing offenses have been ranked in the top 5 while each of them were at Texas Tech and Hawaii despite the various QB’s who played in their system they stayed in the top 5. When you throw as often as a Mike Leach offense you’re going to break records and have some solid statistical seasons.
The reason I devalue the system QB’s are the mere fact that when they leave the university, the next season the offenses aren’t struggling like you would expect an offense to lose a statistical beast would. Most of the offenses just pick up where they left off and get back to top 5 status. When USC loses Matt Barkley, they won’t be a top passing offense the next season, they’ll struggle while another QB learns.
Just like USC struggled when Carson Palmer left, right?
And Matt Leinart? And Mark Sanchez?
by Kyle Rancourt on Feb 19, 2012 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
Good point about Leinart
Leinart’s offense continued to do as well as Palmer’s did previously.
However after Leinart left, there was a significant drop from 50 points a game to 32. That’s a big drop.
I’m glad you brought up Sanchez because USC’s offense clearly struggled with Sanchez at the helm compared to Leinart or Palmer.
I wouldn't compare Sturdy and Leach's offenses straight across
Sure Sturdy ran a spread, but Leach’s strategy is a whole different animal. Authors on this site have gone into great detail outlining how we’ll need an even deeper receiving corp, radical changes in play design/calling and linemen who excel with different pass protection schemes.
That said, I’d like some more concrete theories on why you think Tuel and Halliday have the potential to excel in Leach’s offense. Do they have strong arms? Read the field pre/post snap particularly well? Audible correctly at the line? Throw a better short or long ball? Are durable? Agile in the open field?
I’m not saying all of these are accurate, but just examples of “rationale” that could be used to form an argument.
Personally, I think Tuel will play well because he can throw a strong and accurate short ball, something that Leach prefers. I also think Halliday has some work to do here, though no one will question his arm strength.
Do you think Leach is looking for only QBs that won't get drafted?
I’m curious if the system Leach runs is going to kick out the non-drafted QB’s like it did at Texas Tech
Leach looks for the best QB to run his offense and if he gets drafted then so be it. He has put a few QBs in the Pros and that is better than the majority of NCAA coaches. I know he hasn’t produces the Rypiens, Leafs, Bledsoes of the world but he has produced a lot of QBs that have been drafted, played or sniffed the Pros. Right now I think we would take most of these guys. 4 out of 7 of his QBs have got drafted and spent some time in the NFL.
Tim Couch (1997-98)
Josh Heupel (1999)
Kliff Kingsbury (2000-02)
B.J. Symons (2003)
Sonny Cumbie (2004)
Cody Hodges (2005)
Graham Harrell (2006-08)
Couch was the No. 1 overall pick in the 1999 draft. Heupel (2001) and Kingsbury (2003) were sixth-round picks. Symons (2004) was a seventh-round selection. Three of Leach’s former starters are now on college staffs (Heupel at Oklahoma, Kingsbury at Houston, Cumbie at Texas Tech), and two are co-coordinators (Heupel and Kingsbury).That doesn’t even include Lincoln Riley, the East Carolina offensive coordinator who was on Texas Tech’s roster as a quarterback for a year before becoming a student coach.He definitely recruits smart QBs, because you can tell buy how many are now coaches. We don’t know if he will produce NFL QBs like you want him to, but he is going to produce QBs that put a winning team in the Palouse. I think that is all Cougars are worried about right now. If NFL QBs come with the winning, so be it.
CougCenter OG since 9/2/2008 | @TheSoCalCoug
Leach is going to recruit the best possible quaterback that is able to run the offense well
Every coach recruits players to fit their system. Using star rankings to determine whether the quaterback is good in general (4 or 5 stars) or simply a “system” quaterback (3 star and lower) seems to be a great disservice to both Leach and the players. 4 stars don’t mean future 1st round draft pick/ NFL starter, nor does 2 or 3 stars mean he’ll only be good at the college level. You’re choosing something 5+ years down the road to determine what type of player Leach will recruit as a freshman.
Leach will field great quarterbacks, no doubt.
He will also win a shit load of games for WSU. As far as putting qb’s in the nfl, who cares, he is not there to scout for the paid, he is there to win games for the Cougars. Will it be more fun to go to BCS games or watch an alum on Sundays?
for Heaven's sake, just grow a pair
I don't care either way
I want to see WSU winning games again and going to bowl games. I don’t care either way, but I’m just curious if WSU ever gets back to producing NFL QB’s again.
Wait...
So after all this yelling, cursing, devastatingly capitalized letters, lord knows how much frantic punctuation, bitterness, hurt feelings, a semi-apology and a missing apology, you simply are wondering if WSU will ever be known as “QB U” again?
Um, maybe.
You’re welcome.
Did I miss anything?
If My Life Is Great, Why Am I Not Happy?
by well you win some and lose others on Feb 20, 2012 8:19 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
That's my line
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Ugh
x
#CougHarmonyOnTwitter #teamnopants
by TiltingRight on Feb 21, 2012 10:08 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
I'd just like to say after reading the entire thing I'd guess Jeremy and myself are close to same in age
I think requiting is easier when you’re putting people in the NFL. Most kids that are recruited high think they are the best to ever fill that position. Why? because they have been the best at that position in HS and are being told how great they are. I think Jeremy’s post was an honest question bc at one time it seemed we could get some great 3 and 4 star QB’s because of our past of being “QBU” and if that pisses anyone off…so be it that’s the age difference between some of the followers and some of the authors.
I am sorry if I am beating the dead horse...
…But using location to define where you get the best QB is bound to lose in an argument. It all comes down to how they are trained in high school and college.
If My Life Is Great, Why Am I Not Happy?
by well you win some and lose others on Feb 21, 2012 6:13 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I think this coversation has more than run its course.
Comments closed.
by Jeff Nusser on Feb 21, 2012 8:54 PM PST reply actions 7 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
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